we consider that the adulterated article is making the price for the pure. We do not think the corn flour is injurious to the health of the consumer, but it is the means of greatly upsetting legitimate trade in a strictly pure wheat flour. Then, skipping a portion of his report which does not bear on the point I make: The law can not be too strict or severe, nor too well applied to all who violate any of its provisions. Legitimate milling demands protection from the National Government in a good many ways, and this is one of them. What have you to say about that report? After the adoption of this law you say that the mixed-flour business has gone out of business? Mr. WAGNER. Yes, sir. Mr. Congressman, now, please allow me to read into the record the paragraph that you omitted. It reads like this, and I am reading the part that you omitted: In our opinion, unless there is a national law enacted to compel makers of the adulterated article to so brand it that it may be distinguished from the genuine, the miller who takes pride in offering a fancy flour will have to resort to the use of admixture in order to keep in business, Mr. FORDNEY. Let me read the balance of it: For this reason we think the practice is extending rapidly. State laws may control the trade in those States that have such laws only, as a shipment to go to another State that has no such law can be adulterated, Mr. WAGNER. Is it not strange, Mr. Congressman, that the opponents make the argument in the opposite direction? They say, "Well, if you have a national law, it is all right to ship it in interstate commerce," but what of the product that is made in a State and sold within the State? Mr. Wedderburn says it is all right. Mr. FORDNEY. You say the 4 cents per barrel tax would put you out of business. It will put you out in the States as well as in interstate commerce, if there is nothing else to the law that is detrimental to the mixed flour but the 4 cents tax per barrel. Mr. WAGNER. It is that 4 per cent tax coupled with all that goes with it-the restrictions, regulations, and the stigma that has served to kill or at least to strangle, I think was the expression used by counsel, to strangle that industry. It is not the tax alone, but all that goes with it, that makes it so obnoxious and unfair. Mr. FORDNEY. Would you be willing to repeal the tax of 4 cents. per barrel and permit the remainder of the law to stand? Mr. WAGNER. That is a very interesting proposition, Mr. Congressman. That is interesting, but I have not heard that advanced before. Mr. FORDNEY. There is just one other statement in here by that same man, where he mentions a manufacturer of flourine, writing to a manufacturer of flour and calling his attention to the fact that, if you will purchase my flourine and mix it with wheat flour you will obtain a profit of $400 to $1,600 on each carload you use. Mr. WAGNER. That was long before the Federal food and drugs act was enacted. Mr. FORDNEY. Yes; that was before the enactment of the food and drugs act, and before this law was adopted. It was before we had this law. Mr. WAGNER. We all admit that was a bad practice in those years prior to 1898. There is no question about that. I would not stand here and make an argument in favor of the sale of an adulterated or misbranded article. I should say not. It stands to reason that if Congress legalizes the production of mixed flour and requires that that product shall be sold as mixed flour the trade will readily recognize that condition and there will be added to the various commercial grades of flour now on the market another one called "mixed flour," and you will find in the daily quotations of the flour market not only the quotations on straight, patent, and fancy flour, but on mixed flour, and the jobber and the retailer will know exactly what that product is worth and no manufacturer could palm off or try to get for his mixed flour the price that the miller gets for his straight flour. Commercial practice, commercial usage, commercial knowledge makes such a condition as that impossible. Mr. CONRY. Is it your opinion that the repeal of this law will bring to the consumer and the poor people of the country cheaper bread and bread as nourishing as the bread made from wheat flour? Mr. WAGNER. Mr. Congressman, if that were not my firm and honest conviction I would not stand before you and make a single argument for the Rainey bill. Mr. RAINEY. The wheat-flour mills would get a benefit from it out of an increased consumption of flour? Mr. WAGNER. They certainly would; and if the wheat millers would only take the right view of this matter instead of their narrow, selfish, limited view, they would really see that this whole agitation would eventually lead to an advance in the consumption of wheat flour, and in that way those trade rivalries are usually adjusted, or, rather, adjust themselves. Mr. SLOAN. I think maybe you are under a misapprehension there. This bill does not affect the per cent of the mixture, does it? Mr. WAGNER. No; it may contain 90 per cent or 95 per cent. Mr. SLOAN. No limitation? Mr. WAGNER. Oh, yes; there is a limitation. Mr. LIND. They may make it 90 per cent starch and 10 per cent flour. Mr. WAGNER. You understand, of course, that the Rainey bill uses the same language, as to what should be mixed flour, as the old law, which these gentlemen had enacted, and they recognized at that time that to make a leavened bread you have got to have at least so much of wheat flour in that dough, or in that bread, whatever that percentage may be. Mr. SLOAN. The bill itself does not fix any percentage or any limitation? Mr. WAGNER. No; but if a baker should put in an order for "John Doe's mixed flour," and John Doe was fool enough to put in 49 per cent of cornstarch, Mr. Baker would try to make bread and would make heavy cakes instead, and Mr. John Doe would not get another order from that bread baker; he would say, "I do not want your flour." That is the way those matters are adjusted, It does not take any law for that, you know. Mr. COLLIER. How much of this corn flour can be mixed with wheat flour and make such a mixture as will produce good bread? Mr. WAGNER. That depends. I am very glad, Mr. Congressman, you brought up, this point, because I want to correct the idea, if it should exist in the minds of the members of the committee, that the mixing of the flour is an arbitrary proposition, that a man might go to work and take a soft wheat flour and blend that with a large amount of cornstarch, because if he did that he would not get, very likely, a mixed flour, which would suit the requirements of his particular trade. Therefore the millers and they are all intelligent men-will use, will employ science in their mixing business. They will have their consulting chemists, as they have them to-day, and the consulting chemist will say now, you have a carload of wheat, say, durum wheat, containing 14 per cent gluten. Now, in order to bring that to the standard of soft winter-wheat flour, you may add 12 per cent to 14 per cent of cornstarch, and then you will have a very fine, mixed flour containing about 2 per cent less gluten than the original wheat flour which you employed. Now, next month you may have another carload, and you may take a larger amount of cornstarch or you may take a smaller amount of cornstarch, depending on the advice of your consulting chemist, and depending upon the gluten content of your flour. Mr. COLLIER. I understood you to say that if a baker were to put 49 per cent starch in flour it would make the bread hard like a brick. The question I asked and the point I want to bring out is, How much of this corn flour can be mixed with the wheat flour to make a loaf of bread so that the average purchaser would think he was buying wheat bread? Mr. WAGNER. We have found that the addition of 20 per cent makes a very fine bread. Of course, Mr. Congressman, you will bear in mind that very poor bread can also be made from straight wheat flour. I have seen it; I do not know whether you have or not. I have seen lots of it in traveling around the country, and I know that very poor bread can be made and is made from straight wheat flour. Mr. FORDNEY. But that is not the fault of the wheat, but in the baking. Mr. WAGNER. No; I would not agree with that, Mr. Congressman. I would say that the fault is in both. Mr. COLLIER. I was not using the expression "poor bread," because it is a matter of taste whether a man would prefer what would be called corn bread or wheat bread, but I wanted to know what is the amount of corn meal that is used in this trade generally. Is it 80 per cent of wheat flour and 20 per cent of corn flour? Is that about what is generally used? Mr. WAGNER. I think so. Mr. COLLIER. Have you ever seen as much as 30 per cent of corn flour? Mr. WAGNER. Not for bread making; no. Mr. HELVERING. Wheat contains 14.6 per cent of gluten? Mr. WAGNER. Wheat flour, you mean? Mr. HELVERING. Yes, sir. Mr. WAGNER. That is a question. I do not know. Mr. HELVERING. And the higher the gluten quality the more corn flour you can put in? Mr. WAGNER. Yes; I think so. Mr. HELVERING. Thirty-five per cent to 45 per cent of corn flour mixed with wheat flour will make a loaf which, in appearance, is a good deal like a wheat loaf? Mr. WAGNER. It would be soggy. That is the way I would put it, from what I have seen. I would say it would be soggy and heavy. Mr. MOORE. Mr. Wagner, are you president of the American Association of Products from Corn? Mr. WAGNER. No. Mr. MOORE, Who is the president of that association? Mr. WAGNER. Mr. Kersting, of Clinton, Iowa. Mr. MOORE. And of what association is Mr. Asher Miner president? Mr. WAGNER. The National Association of White Corn Millers. Mr. MOORE. You appear here as representing the American Manufacturers' Association of Products from Corn. Mr. WAGNER. The company I am identified with is a member of that association. Mr. MOORE. What is that company? Mr. WAGNER. The Corn Products Refining Co. Mr. MOORE. Where is it located? Mr. WAGNER. At New York City, 17 Battery Place. Mr. WAGNER. We are. Mr. MOORE. Will you tell us the difference between white corn and yellow corn as used in bread making? Mr. WAGNER. I do not know that I understand your question. Mr. MOORE. As to the bread-making qualities of white and yellow corn, I would like to know the difference: Whether white corn is more serviceable, and whether it is more generally used than yellow corn. Mr. WAGNER. Well, Mr. Congressman, that is a question that is really outside my line. Mr. MOORE. I asked Mr. Haskell, the secretary of the National Association of White Corn Millers. that question yesterday, and I had some doubt as to whether I was clear on the subject. Mr. WAGNER. I believe I understand what is in your mind, Mr. Congressman. I think Mr. Haskell created the impression that yellow corn would give a yellow product, which is quite true; but of course in the manufacture of starch we use yellow corn, and I think, as a matter of fact, most of our corn is yellow corn, but it makes perfectly white starch, as you see it before you here. Mr. MOORE. But the impression that Mr. Haskell left on my mind was that yellow corn was not as valuable for mixing with wheat as white corn. Mr. WAGNER. No, Mr. Congressman, the starch from white corn and yellow corn is identically the same. It is all white. But in the manufacture of dry milled products a large amount of gluten, which has a yellow color, remains in the corn meal or corn flour, and of course, due to physical laws, that yellow gluten imparts to that otherwise white starch of the corn a yellowish tinge. Mr. MOORE. You say that the starch from the yellow corn does not differ in color from the starch from the white corn? Mr. WAGNER. Not a bit. Mr. MOORE. The color would be identical? Mr. WAGNER. Yes, sir. Mr. MOORE. And therefore if it were used in bread making it could not be detected, that is, the difference between the yellow corn and white corn could not be detected? Mr. WAGNER. As starch, no. Mr. MOORE. Well, as to corn meal, would that same condition as to color hold true? Mr. WAGNER. It is very likely as to corn meal their product would have a yellowish tinge if they used yellow corn, due to the gluten content, but not to starch. Mr. MOORE. What is the difference between corn meal and con flour? Mr. WAGNER. It is only in the degree of fineness. One is a finely powdered product and the other is a little coarser, and from the analyses that I have seen from time to time I would say that the corn flour contained a somewhat larger percentage of cornstarch. Mr. MOORE. Would there be any difference in the color of corn meal made from yellow and white corn? Mr. WAGNER. Now, Mr. Congressman, I have had no personal experience in the manufacture of dry milled corn products, and could give you only my opinion for whatever it may be worth. Mr. MOORE. Would not the color affect the commercial use of mixed flour? Would that not affect the very business that you are evidently intending to develop? Mr. WAGNER. Well, I would say this, that from the baking tests which I have seen of bread being made from wheat flour and cornstarch the color of the bread obtained is whiter than that made from straight wheat flour. Now, then, if you take a mixture of wheat flour and corn meal, which latter product has a slightly yellowish tinge, I should judge that the color of the bread obtained therefrom is equal in shade and lightness to that made from many grades of wheat flour. It may be a little darker that is true, but do not think it would be dark enough to seriously affect the quality of the bread. I mean to say by that that the corn loaves will be used just as freely regardless of that slightly darker shade. Mr. MOORE. Assuming that the consuming public is governed very largely by the color and the quality, would it not be prejudiced against bread not made from pure wheat flour? Mr. WAGNER. I would say that if they were prejudiced against that product then they would have to be prejudiced in favor of bread made from wheat flour and cornstarch because that would be still whiter than that obtained from straight wheat flour. That holds good both ways if there is any such prejudice. I do not know. I have not made any investigation on that subject. Then again, you may know that there is on the market the so-called whole wheat bread and Graham bread. We have dark-colored bread. That is simply a popular fancy. I personally do not like white bread. Mr. DIXON. Do I understand now in order to successfully mix the flour it would require a chemical examination? Mr. WAGNER. Examination of what, Mr. Congressman? Mr. DIXON. As to the contents of the wheat flour, the gluten, so as know the quantity of corn flour that we can mix with it successfully? |