Mr. HOWARD. You could not estimate the amount of corn present from the amount of gluten present, if I understand correctly. I am not a chemist and you have access to chemists that can tell you more definitely.

Mr. FORDNEY. I thought you were a chemist.

Mr. HOWARD. No; I am a microscopist; that is my field.

Mr. FORDNEY. You understand that well enough to say whether that could be done?

Mr. HOWARD. That is my understanding from conversation with chemists in regard to it, that it would depend upon the gluten content of the flour with which the corn was mixed.

Mr. HELVERING. Mr. Howard, is there any process by which I, if I were in a position to do so, could take cornstarch and, say, heat it to 400° F., and, by submitting it to a jet of steam, destroy the angular portions or the angular appearance of the cornstarch?

Mr. HOWARD. I think that there might be a certain amount of change wrought in the starch grains, but it would depend upon the moisture that was added as to how much they would be changed.

You take the starch that has been submitted to a dry heat of approximately what you stated there, and I should expect to get more or less a dextrinization, and in a dry condition unaffected by moisture the starch grains would have very much the same appearance that they have in the normal starch; but if there is added to it a quantity of water then the starch grains swell up and lose their characteristic form.

Now, just what would happen with certain jets of steam I can not say because I have not carried out those experiments.

Mr. HELVERING. Suppose that steam carried enough water to dextrinize this substance so you could make cakes out of it and then grind it, then what?

Mr. HOWARD. If it added sufficient water to make a dough of it or make it into solution, then you could dry it and get a cake and that might be dried down to such a degree it would grind and make a meal or flour out of it, and that examined in a dry condition would show angular fragments when mixed with flour, but there I think you would also get a chemical difference.

Mr. RAINEY. Are there any questions?

Hr. HELVERING. I would like to have these two photographs that I called attention to incorporated in the record.

Mr. LONGWORTH. I will read a telegram I received and ask you what comment you have to make on it?

As a large consumer of flour I know the repeal of the mixed-flour law will be of great harm to the biscuit makers. I strongly protest against the passage of any measure which aims to repress or modify it in any way, in the interest of an above-board policy and one that does not compel a chemical analysis to determine the fairness of one's purchase.

I would like you to make any comment you see fit about the truth of that proposition, or whether it is true or not.

Mr. HOWARD. As to the legal side or desirability of the repeal of the law I am not in a position to speak because I have not seen the law or the bill. An opinion in regard to that could undoubtedly be obtained, on request, from the Secretary of Agriculture. It would be preferable to refer it to the people who are in a position to answer that better than I am.

Mr. HELVERING. Are those plates you submitted to be returned, or can they be used by us?

Mr. HOWARD. You can use them.

Mr. LANNEN. In regard to that steaming of the starch and dextrination and gelatinization and drying, would that be commercially possible?

Mr. HOWARD. There is upon the market, I believe, certain products made by treating dextrin with water, though it may not be in the form of steam, but to which water has been added. This results in a product which is very different in character, and that is upon the market in powdered form.

Mr. LANNEN. It is a very expensive product, is it not?

Mr. HOWARD. I can not say as to the price. I believe it is a commercial product on the market.

Mr. LANNEN. As compared with the price of cornstarch it is much more expensive, and also as compared to the price of flour?

Mr. HOWARD. One might judge that, although I could not say. Mr. LANNEN. What is the name of that product?

Mr. HOWARD. There is one I have understood that was practical, known as American Gum.

Mr. LANNEN. Does not that cost 10 cents a pound?

Mr. HOWARD. As I said, I know nothing about the price of it. Mr. LANNEN (addressing Mr. Wagner). Do you know how much it costs?

Mr. WAGNER. We were the manufacturers of it.

Mr. LANNEN. How much does it cost?

Mr. WAGNER. Ten cents, but we discontinued its manufacture about six years ago.

Mr. LANNEN. Ten cents a pound?

Mr. WAGNER. That was in large lots. It was a crystallized product and not a powdered product.

Mr. LANNEN. Is that the only product you know of that could be used for bread making purposes in the conversion of dextrins?

Mr. HOWARD. I have not looked into those various dextrins so I am not in a position to say.

Mr. HELVERING. Is there any process you know of, except by microscopic observation, by which you can tell the amounts of cornstarch in wheat flour?

Mr. HOWARD. No; none that I have ever heard of.

Mr. RAINEY. You are not a chemist?

Mr. HOWARD. No; I am not a chemist.

Mr. RAINEY. Are there any further questions?

Mr. LIND. No; but in view of the vicissitudes of human life, if Dr. Wesener has such a valuable aid to science, and which he has generously offered to contribute to the Government, it seems to me it would be a great public service if he would communicate that secret to the scientific gentlemen of the department and of the country.

Mr. WAGNER. It is in the record now. He gave you the information the other day when he testified.

Mr. LIND. I beg your pardon; he did not.

Mr. WAGNER. Not the details, but the principles of it, which any chemist could follow up.

Mr. LIND. Yes; but every chemist I have talked with denies it. The name of the stain would be very important.

Dr. WESENER. Answering Gov. Lind's question, he stating that the name of the stain would be very important, I told it to Dr. Phelps last night at the New Willard. It is Carbo Phoxine, but I am not ready to give the details of the method necessary to carry this process through, because I have not my notes with me. It has to be done in a quantitative way.

As I said when I testified, the method was sufficiently good away back in 1897 or 1896, of which I have records, that they put up these unknown mixtures on me because we sent out a postal card that we could detect less than 1 per cent of cornstarch in flour and they went to all the millers, and you ought to have seen the flour come in, fixed up, unknowns as we called them, to me-but known samples to them— and we got letters back, "We compliment you on the accuracy of your determinations."

Mr. LIND. Would you be ready now to make similar analyses for the millers here and make a return of samples submitted within a reasonable time?

Dr. WESENER. I will do that at my laboratory. Of course you would have to pay my fee

as

Mr. LIND. Of course.

Dr. WESENER. I am not here in the glory of science alone, except I speak on the floor.

Mr. LIND. But how long would it take you to report on samples? Dr. WESENER. It would take some little time, but I would have to know something about the board and know its absolute honesty and not mixed up in any trickery.

Mr. LIND. If you would not trust the millers

Dr. WESENER. No; I would not leave it to the millers, because they are partisan, nor would I leave it to our side; but it should be left to a scientific board.

Mr. LIND. Will you leave it to the board of chemists of the Agriculture Department to select and submit samples to you?

Dr. WESENER. I think that would be large enough so we could get a good board; yes.

Mr. LIND. This is a very important thing for the Nation and for all concerned. Would it be acceptable to the committee to have a committee of the chemists of the Agricultural Department submit samples to the doctor and let him make report within a reasonable time?

Mr. RAINEY. We are willing to consider any evidence you present provided you get it here in time.

Dr. WESENER. I will also reiterate. I believe I have made the statement heretofore about the article there from Dr. Alsberg, or some other matter, and the question of determining the grade of cornstarch and flour came up, and I said I had not looked into it for a long time, but we had a very good method back in 1896 and 1897, which was never published, but which had been found to be very useful at that time, and if that was ever of importance to the Agricultural Department, I will be very glad to turn it over to them, and I say that now.

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up.

Mr. LANNEN. Mr. Chairman, maybe we can straighten this thing

Mr. RAINEY. Let us hear Representative Young.

STATEMENT OF HON. GEORGE M. YOUNG, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF NORTH DAKOTA.

Mr. YOUNG. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, I have the honor to represent a district in what is known as the wheat State. Mr. RAINEY. What State is that?

Mr. YOUNG. North Dakota.

Mr. RAINEY. Illinois is known as the wheat State.

Mr. YOUNG. You say it is known as the wheat State? How many bushels did you raise in Illinois last year?

Mr. RAINEY. I do not know. We raised more than the average year. I know we raised more than you did in North Dakota.

Mr. YOUNG. Illinois raised last year a little over 53,000,000 bushels of wheat and North Dakota raised a little over 151,970,000.

Mr. MOORE. That was only three times as much as Illinois raised. Mr. YOUNG. That is all. [Laughter.]

There seem to be five classes of people interested in this proposed legislation: The corn-products people, the millers, the consumers, the corn raisers, and the wheat raisers. Now, I have not been here during all of the sessions all of the time, but I have been here most of the time, and so far as I can see, only two classes have been represented the corn-products people and the millers. Some one behind me says that the consumers have been represented. I have not seen anything here to indicate that the consumers have been here in any proper sense. A telegram was read here a while ago

Mr. HELVERING. There was a lady on the stand the second day who claimed to represent the consumers.

Mr. YOUNG. I doubt whether she was qualified to speak for the housewives of all the United States. I do not propose to quarrel with the members of the committee about what has been testified before this committee, but I submit if you will look over the testimony taken down here, after it is printed, you will find very little to impress you with the idea that the consumers have been represented here at this hearing. I know the chairman is fair and everyone in the United States has an opportunity to come in here and express his opinion on this bill, but the fact remains that they have not been here.

Mr. RAINEY. That is what they sometimes say of the tariff revisions.

Mr. YOUNG. They have had the opportunity to be here, but I do not think they have been here.

Mr. MOORE. We are very large consumers in our country, I will say to you, Mr. Young, and we are very much interested in the consumer's end of it. We have to buy the bread.

Mr. YOUNG. I do not doubt but that this committee and the members personally are in touch with the consumers and know that they are going to get a fair hearing here and get fair consideration.

It does not seem that the corn raisers have been represented here, excepting by some people who claim to be friendly to them. I doubt if the corn raisers are very greatly interested in this