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A. I should have them if I wanted them.
Q. And you would want them?

A. I might or might not. It depends on how close an observation I desired to make. There were no clinical thermometers thirty or forty years ago, and we got along very well then.

Q. But we know something more than we did thirty or forty years


Mr. RILEY, We think we do.
The W'ITNESS. - I was about to say that we thought we did.

Q. And a physician thirty or forty years ago would not be the physician that you would recommend if he hadn't had any advancement in knowledge since then?

A. There are some of them who lived at that time that I would rather have treat me than the doctors which exist at the present time. Q

What do you say? A. I say there were those who lived then that I should prefer to take care of me than those who live at present.

Q. Do you think that that suggestion that they didn't have them thirty or forty years ago is a fair answer to my question.

4. I think so, if I understood the purpose of your question.

Q. My question is, whether, if you were now put in charge of this hospital and I wish that that good fortune might come to it — you would not have them there?

4. I should, certainly.
Q. What?
A. I should.

Q. Assuming the character of these cases to be such as they are, and bearing in mind the large number of venereal diseases that are treated there, do you think or not that the nurses who are taking care of the patients should have dressing forceps or use their fingers ?

A. They should have forceps.

Q. And would you think the hospital well equipped if there were no forceps for the use of nurses?

A." I should think it not well equipped.

Q. Do you think that in a hospital of this kind, eren though it be for the poor, there should be opportunity for sterilizing and keeping things in condition for operations ?

A. I saw opportunities of that sort.
Q. You did?
A. I did.
Q. But if they were not there?
A. I saw them there.
Q. You are speaking of the present time?
A. I am speaking of my visit to the hospital.
Q, Did you see dressing towels there?

A. I didn't look into that matter. The sterilizing apparatus I couldn't help seeing Q. Did you make an examination of the surgeon's needles there?

I didn't. Q: And assunring that there were none provided for use, would you think that it hospital was well equipped ?

I should think not. Q. Assuming that to be a fact, as stated in the report of the Board of Visitors, ils it appears on page 715 of the record

Mr. PROCTOR. Page 715 of our record here?

Mr. BRANDEIS. — Yes, sir. Assuming it to be a fact, as there stated, that “the clothing of the women, both in hospital and infirmary, lias been insufficient Hannel for petticoats was furnished only late in January,” would you or would you not think that was taking proper care of the patients in the hospital?

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A. I should think not. They should be properly clothed.

Q. And you should think that flannel was a very proper thing to be provided ?

A. Very desirable for a winter garb.
Q. In a hospital exposed as this one ?
A. Whether in the hospital or not.
Q. Anywhere?
A. Yes, sir.

d. Assuming it to be a fact, as it is stated in this report of the Board of Visitors, that although there was a proper method of ventilation, the ventilators themselves were kept closed and had become clogged so that they did not work properly, would you think the hospital properly managed ?

A. I should think it was excessive economy.

Q. Would you think it was a proper condition for a pauper hospital ?

A. I think not.

Mr. CURTIS. Do you think, Mr. Brandeis, that anybody would say it was?

Mr. BRANDEIS. I didn't know what you might say.

Mr. CURTIS. You don't think that if the ventilators were in the condition that you claim they were, they were working properly, and nobody else does; and it seems to me that it is an absolute waste of time to ask such foolish questions.

Mr. BRANDEIS. — Well, it isn't as extraordinary as some things that you and Mr. Reed have contended.

Mir. CURTIS. Well, I never contended that.

Mr. PROCTOR. Oh, let him go on and ask all the foolish questions he wants to.

Mr. BRANDEIS. — Well, as long as I am conducting this case, I shall ask such questions as I consider proper.

Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) Doctor, if Dr. Putnam, being the chairman of the Board of Visitors appointed by the Mayor and City Council, should report that at the time of his visit to the hospital he found it unclean that both the hospital building itself and the patients were in an unclean condition -- would you or would you not believe that Dr. Putnam's observation of those facts would not be trustworthy ?

A. I should believe it to be trusted.
Q. You should think it should be trusted ?
Ă. Certainly.

Q. And if you found any difference in the condition of things indicated in the report which he made, and the condition of the hospital when you examined it early in the summer, and from that indicated in the report you made when Dr. Cogswell invited you there, and when the day was fixed in advance, would you consider that there was in difference in the actual condition of the hospital between the time you visited it and Dr. Putnam visited it, unsolicited ?

A. I would.
Q. You would ?
A. Yes ; certainly.

Q. Well, now, referring to the report of the Board of Visitors and I refer now to the first special committee appointed by the Mayor in 1892 -- if you remember, Dr. Putnam and Dr. Prince were members of that committee - and if, after their examination into the condition of the hospital they advised that there should be a more liberal diet, both regular and special, do you think that that advice and recommendation of Dr. Prince and Dr. Putnam shouid be acted upon ?

A. If the city is willing to pay the bills.
Q. You think it should be acted upon ?
Å. I should have that opinion, personally.

Q. I am asking for your personal opinion, of course.
A. Recommendations of that sort I should advocate carrying out.

Q. And if Dr. Putnian and Dr. Prince recommended that there should be paid nurses in every ward in the hospital, would you or would you not think that that recommendation should be acted upon ?

A. It depends to what extent the recommendation was made.
Q. He says:

Paid nurses in each ward."
A. Does he mean more than one in each ward ?

Q. I think not. · As I read it, I should understand that he meant one paid nurse in each ward.

A. If he means that there should be one paid nurse, I should agree with him.

Q. If they recommend that there should be a covered wagon, with springs, for transporting the sick from the wharf to the building - by which, I persume, they mean an ambulance - would you or would you not think that recommendation one which should be acted upon ?

A. I think it should be.

Q. If they recommended that there should be for the hospital a board of consulting physicians, and if such was desired by the physician in charge, would you think that that was a recommendation to be acted

upon ?

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A. The attempt might be made.
Q. Why do you say the attempt might be made"?

Ă. I can see that it would not be a very enviable position for an active physician or surgeon to assume.

Q. To become one of the board of consulting physicians ?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. There is no difficulty in getting an excellent board of consulting board of physicians for Tewksbury?

A. I am under the impression that they have very little to do.

Q. Well, they go there when they are actually called upon to do something, don't they?

d. Well, I have no personal knowledge of that matter.

Q. Do you know the men who are on that board of consulting physicians for Tewksbury?

A. I heard one of them state that he had been there once in the last seven years. Q. Well, who was he ?

Dr. Richardson. Q. Which Richardson ? d. Dr. Morris H. Richardson.

Q. Well, how about the others ? Have they been there more regularly?

À. I think lie has been there whenever he has been called upon.

Q. You mean, that the position as a member of the board of consulting physicians for Long Island is a position which men of prominence would not be apt to accept?

A. That I cannot say. I can only speak for my own self.

Q. That is, that you personally would not wish to assume that position ?

A. I should think I was making a great sacrifice.
Q. Well, is Dr. John Homans a physician of prominence?
A. He is.

Q. And he is on the board of the Tewksbury hospital. Is Dr. B. Joy Jeffries a physician of prominence?

A. He is.
Q. And is Dr. J. J. Putnam a plıysician of prominence ?
A. Yes.
Q. You know Dr. Ir sh, of Lowell ?
A. Yes, sir.

He is.

Q. Is he a man of prominence?
Q. And Dr. Chamberlain — is he a man of prominence ?
A. Yes, sir, he is also a man of prominence.

Q. Then the institution of Tewksbury having those gentlemen as a consulting board you think they are well equipped with consulting physicians ?

4. They are.

Q. And is there any reason why the institution at Long Island should not succeed in getting men equally desirable ?

it. It depends upon what demands are made upon them.

Q. That is, it would depend upon how much work is put upon them ?

A. The office of consulting physician is usually an honorary office. Some of them are not paid anything at all.

Q. Why do you think they are appointed ?
A. Rather as an honor, I think.
Q. To whom to the hospital or to the men ?
A. Rather as a reward of merit for faithful service.

Q. Do you think that any of those men have done service at Tewksbury ?

À. I don't know as they have. Dr. Irish lives near Tewksbury, and he may be called in more often than the others.

Q. Aren't they appointed rather in order that the physician in charge may feel that he has certain persons on whom he has a right to call in case of need, and with whom he has a right to consult?

A. I have the impression that they are not called upon very often to go to Tewksbury.

Q. Isn't that the reason why they are selected ?
A. I don't know the reason why they are selected.
2. And wasn't that the reason why the Board was established ?
A. I didn't know the reason why the Board was established.

Q. Well, I will ask you this : Tewksbury is a very well managed institution at present, is it not?

A. So far as I know. I don't know anything particularly about it.
Q. Hasn't it a good reputation ?
A. So far as I am aware of.

Q. Well, I will ask you whether this statement made in a report of the Tewksbury Alpshouse, which may have come to your notice, does not state what is the general understanding in regard to the uses of a consulting Board :

Believing it to be unwise to allow the responsibility of so large a hospital to rest wholly upon its resident officers, we, early last year, conferred withi some of the most prominent plıysicians and surgeons in the State, inviting them to constitute a consulting Buard,” to be called upon, collectively or individually, whenever, in the opinion of the trustees or superintendent, their counscl or service would be advantageous.

Doesn't that express fairly the uses of a consulting board ? :
Mr. KEED. What is the date of that report?

Mr. BRANDEIS. That is 1889. They came to that knowledge as early as that, and Long Island hasn't found it out yet.

Q. (By Mr. BRANDIES.) Isn't there any reason why similar considerations should not apply to Long Island ?

A. None that I am aware of.

Q. I would like to ask you, doctor, whether a hospital which is designed for the poor of the city of Boston should properly have an isolated room for the dying ?

4. I don't think an isolated room for the dying is at all vecessary. Q. You don't think it necessary ?

A. No, sir.

Q. Then you think, therefore, that the Commissioners desired something that is unnecessary?

A. The Massachusetts General Hospital has no such room.
Q. There is no roon at all?
A. No, sir.
Q. Where are the dying left ?
A. They die in the wari.
Q. And are there any screens put up?
A. The screens are put about the bed.
Q. And that is all, is it?
A. That is all; yes, sir.

Q. And no matter what the nature of the case is, the patient is left there?

A. If the patient is very noisy, the patient would probably be removed to one of the private rooms in the lower ward.

Q. Then there are rooms?

A. They would have to be put in a room which is ordinarly reserved for paid patients.

Q. Then you have a room in which the dying can be carried ?
A. Yes, sir; if there is any occasion for it.

Q. And a hospital in which there was no such room, you would not think properly equipped ?

A. These are not rooms for that purpose.
Q. It is a room to which they are carried ?

A. Well, any room to which they are removed is one to which they are carried. They may be carried there.

Q. So that a person, even though he be a poor person, can be carried into that room.

A. It is not a question of poor or rich.

Q. That is, the poverty of a particular patient does not affect the question ?

A. Not the slightest.

Q. There is no difference in this respect between a hospital for paupers and a hospital for citizens of Boston and the Massachusetts General Hospital?

A. Not the slightest; not the slightest.

Mr. BRANDEIS. Have you the hospital records of Long Island here? They were included in the call. Mr. CURTIS. Yes; and we got the call when we came into this

I don't know whether we have them or not. The books are kept down at the island, as you may be aware.

Mr. BRANDEIS. This notice was sent before noon, yesterday.

Mr. CURTIS. - I got it here in the hall. It is generiilly customary in practising at the bar to give notice a proper length of time before anything is desired.

Mi. BRANDEIS, — We are not practising at the bar; we are asking for the production of those records.

Mr. PROCTOR. When did you cease to practice at the bar, Mr. Brandeis ?

Mr. BRANDEIS. Well, this practice here is very unlike it in many respects.

Mr. PROCTOR. -- You would not use less courtesy here than elsewhere, would you?

Mr. BRANDEIS. This is not a question of courtesy.

Mr. PROCTOR. Then if it is a question of right, we demand the time. If it is only a question of courtesy, we request it.

Mr. BRANDEIS. – I would like to ask Dr. Fitz some questions on that book.

Mr. CURTIS. Well, we cannot help that. I think, moreover, that

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