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A.

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A. I don't remember just who was on board the boat.
Q. Well, who was with you when you went through the building ?

When I went through the building Dr. Ilarkins went through the greater portion of the building with me. Whether Mr. Galvin did or not I can't say.

Q. You may have heard from the testimony here of Mr. Brownell that shortly before – that is, at the end of August, 1891, shortly before you went down --- that he, being then connected with the Herald,” had gone down and made an investigation of the island upon which he had ordered a report which was to appear in the Sunday Herald.” Do you remember that article which appeared in the “ Sunday Ilerald ? "

A. I don't remember it.

Q. And he testified that the Commissioners, or one of them – Dr. Jenks, I believe had requested him to go down and make an investigation, and offered him practically whatever reasonable compensation he might ask. Did Dr. Jenks, when he requested you to go down. refer in any way to the request made of Mr. Brownell and his refusal ?

I don't think he did. I don't remember. Q. Did Dr. Jenks, when he requested you to go down, offer you conpensation ?

A. He did not.

Q. He simply asked you as a member of one of the other Boards of the city ?

A. That was the understand ing.

Q. Well, now, do you know Dr. Joseph I. McLaughlin or did you know Dr. McLaughlin, resident physician there before Dr. Harkins ?

A. I know hin very slightly. I am not quite sure whether I know him or not.

Q. You know his reputation ?
A. Yes, I know him by reputation,
Q. Well, is it good ?
A. Good as far as I know.

Q. Dr. McLaughlin, in one of the reports, speaking of the hospital at Rainsford Island which you also speak of, says, Although the hospital has been thoroughly renovated there still remains the fact that it is entirely inadequate for the demands upon it."

Mr. PROCTOR. What year was that ?
Mr. BRANDEIS. 1890.
Mr. PROCTOR. Well, as to the year 1889 ?
Mr. BRANDEIS. - Yes, January 1, 1890.

Q. · In previous annual reports I have made earnest appeals to remedy existing conditions, and have shown the necessity of a new hospital.” Do you, from your investigation which you made some time afterward, concur in Dr. McLaughlin's conclusion ?

A. At that time the foundations of the new hospital, I think, were either completed or were in process of being laid.

Q. Well, you agree, then, in respect to the hospital, that as you then found it, it was not sufficient? A. The hospital accommodations were crowded, of course.

That is what I have said.

Q. But did you mean to say that it was sufficient?

A. I said that it was crowded, that it was not sufficient that the hospital was crowded.

Q. Well, then, you would agree with the statement which Dr. Harkins made again and again, that the hospital accommodations proved inadequate for those desiring and requiring hospital treatment? You would think th:it that statement of Dr. Harkins was correct?

A. Well, I don't know as you could say again and again, because at times the hospital accommodations might be sufficient, and then there might be an influx of patients when they wouldn't be. . Of course, there was need of a new hospital. That I should say most certainly.

Q. Now, in the medical societies with which you are connected you also know of Dr. Morton Prince ?

A. Yes.
Q. And Dr. Putnam ?

A.

Yes.

Q. What is their standing?
A. It is good.

Q. Yes and you know that they made an investigation in regard to the condition of these hospitals!

A. I do.
Q. And have you read their report?
A. I have.

Q. It is the report I referred to the report here in June, 1892, the report of the visitors. In that report they recommended, with reference to the hospital, that there should be a covered wagon with springs for transporting the sick an ambulance, in other words. Would you agree with that?

A. I should. There was an ambulance.
Q. When ?
A. When I went down there.

Q. Well, these gentlemen made a report shortly afterwards that there was not.

A. Well, a covered carriage with springs for transporting the sick. Q. Are you sure?

A. I have seen sick people who would go in the boat I presume they were sick, I didn't examine them they would use it.

Q. When ?
A. I can't give you the date.
Q. When was it?
A. I say I can't give you the date.
Q. Well, how nearly can you give it?

A. Well, it is impossible for me to give the date, because I am very frequently down on the Vigilant," and frequently run in at Long Island.

Q. You mean that they have such a wagon there now?

A. There is a wagon there with springs that can be used for transporting Q. Yes now?

I am referring to the time when there was not. A. There was a wagon there with springs when I went down, in 1891.

Q. Are you sure?
A. Yes, I know I am, because I rode up in it.

Q. Well, how do you know? These gentlemen report that there wasn't any, and there wis a report that there was one required.

A. I don't know anything about that report. I didn't write that report.

Q. Do you have in mind the omnibus as distinguished from an ambulance ?

A. That can be used as an ambulance, is frequently used as an ambulance, and that is the wagon that I rode in.

Q. Yes — did the sick patients ride in it with you?

A. Not at that particular time, but I have seen them come down on the boat when I have been down on the “. Vigilant."

Q. Well, you spoke of some woven-wire beds - mattresses, I suppose in the hospital. Now, do you approve of having them?

A. I think they are the very best beds you can have in a hospital.

Q. Then you think Dr. Prince and Dr. Putnam were right when they recommended that they should have them, don't you ?

A. I should, most certainly.

Q. And you would think, also, that there ought to be an ambulance? In that respect you would agree with them?

A. I should.

Q. And you would agree with them, also, that there ought to be more paid nurses than there were when you were down there?

A. That was my statement two years ago.

Q. Now, they also recommended a Board of Consulting Physicians, which Dr. Harkins had requested before ?

A. Well, I don't see any possible good that a Board of Consulting Physicians would do, because the class of men who would be likely to serve on such a Board would not do any great amount of work, because the cases are essentially chronic cases, and they are not cases that a man interested in investigating disease is likely to study.

Q. Well, how do you account for Dr. Harkins requesting such a Board to be appointed?

A. I don't know. I can't account for what Dr. Harkins requests.

Q. You would think that if he, as resident physician, requested that such a Board be appointed, it would be a presumption that probably a man in that position, feeling isolated, would be right in asking for it?

A. Well, that is a matter of opinion. It is Dr. Harkins' opinion, and I have just given you mine.

Q. Well, you give yours from three hours' investigation, do you?

A. From three hours' investigation of that institution and from what I have known of consulting Boards in other institutions.

Q. You think in Tewksbury it is useless ?

A. I don't think it does any particular good there, particularly as one member of the consulting Board has not been up there for seven years.

Q. Well, fortunately there are others who go more frequently.
Mr. PROCTOR. There is no evidence of that.
Mr. BRANDEIS. We are now taking evidence.

Q. Well, did you observe while down there, doctor, the condition of the facilities in the way of fire-escapes and the facilities for extinguishing fires ?

A. I did not.

Q. Did you observe whether there were any screens put around the bath-tubs, -the women's bath-tubs, when you were down there?

A. Bath-tubs were in separate rooms.

Q. I don't mean now, recently — six weeks ago — but I mean this time in 1891 ?

A. I can't remember back there whether they were any or not. I think they were, at least there were on Long Island. I am not positive about Rainsford Island.

Q. If there weren't any you would approve of having them, wouldn't

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you?

A. I should.

Q. And if the plumbing was insufficient you would approve of having good plınıbing ?

A. I should, certainly.

Q. And you would be willing to rely then or now on the inspection of Mr. Brown, of your Board?

A. I don't think I should.
Q. Wouldn't ?
A. No.
Q. What do you think is to be said about Mr. Brown?
A. I think I should rely upon my own inspection.
Q. Well, is Mr. Brown a l'eliable man?
A. He is a perfectly reliable man.
Q. What is his business?
A. Well, he is an inspector of the Board of Health now.
Q. Inspects for what purposes ?

A.

A. Drainage.
Q. Drainage ?
A. Yes.
Q. And ordinary sanitation, I suppose ?
A. Yes.
Q. Will, now, that is his sole business, is it?
A. Yes, that is all he does now. I presume, I don't know.
Q. Why do you say you wouldn't rely upon his report?

A. I said on general principles I wouldn't rely – I should want to investigate anything of that sort myself. Q. Yes, and if he reported it insufficient you would –

I should satisfy myself that it was insufficient. Q. That is, wouldn't trust him in any respect?

A. I should trust him — believe he would gire his best opinion to the best of his knowledge and belief, but I should want to substantiate his opinion by an investigation of my own.

Q. Then what would be the use of his investigating?
A. What would be the use !
Q. Yes, the use of having hiin investigate ?

A. Well, I don't anything about that. That is something that is an entirely different matter.

Q. You wouldn't advise the public, then, to rely upon Mr. Brown?

A. I am not speaking about what I should advise the public. I say personally in any question of drainage I should rely upon my own examination.

Q. Well, we ask you what we should rely upon - not asking your own opinion of what you would do in your own case, but what we should do in a general case, whether we should accept Mr. Brown's statement?

A. Well, you asked me first what I should do and I told you what I should do.

Q. Now, what should we do?
A.

You can accept Mr. Brown's opinion.
Q. You think we should ?
A. I think he is a perfectly competent and a perfectly reliable

nan.

A.

Q. (By Mr. RILEY.) I want to ask you this, doctor, in regard to that report – have you knowledge that it never was received by the Bourd ?

A. I know nothing about that at all.
Q. You haven't been so informed!
A. No, I have not.
Q. You said you tasted coffee at Rainsford Island, did you?
A. No, at Long Island.

Q. Well, I understand they don't serve coffee at Long Island. They serve tea and shells.

There was coffee in this room, one of the serving rooms of one of the wards.

Q. Well, did they tell you they were serving coffee to the patients? A. I asked if that was the coffee used, I think.

Q. Yes. You said in reply to a question that there were no acute diseases there, did you ? A. No, I said very few.

And then you added something about confinement diseases being so and so. Now, I would like to ask you, doctor, when you made the discovery that cases of confinement were cases of disease ?

A. I didn't say so. I put in a proviso - unless you could speak of them as acute cases. They are an acute cases,

. Q. I suppose they were, but not cases of disease. A. Well, they have to be treated by physicians.

REDIRECT-EXAMINATION.

Q.

Q. (By Mr. REED.) Doctor, I meant to ask you if you had been down to Rainsford Island this past summer? A. I have been down there this last summer.

And if you were here while the summer hospital was in operation ?

A. I was down there two or three times.
Q. Did you visit the summer hospital ?
A. I did.
Q. And

And I understand that that old white building was used for the purposes of a summer hospital ?

A. It was.

Q. It was thoroughly renovated, painted, and whitewashed, as I understand it, and equipped. Now, what is your judgment as to the suitability of that place for that purpose ?

A. It was eminently fitted for the summer hospital; no doubt saved the lives of a great many children.

Q. You have been asked as to the qualifications, ability, and standing of certain physicians. You have some acquaintance with Dr. Cogswell, I presume?

A. I have.
Q. The present superintendent at Long Island ?
A. I have.
Q. How long have you known Dr. Cogswell?
A. Oh, perhaps fifteen years, twelve or fifteen years.

Q. And you have had some knowledge of his skill and ability as a physician, I presume?

A. Yes.

Q. Oh, I don't know as it is quite twelve or fifteen years. I have
known him ever since he graduated, knew him about the time he grad-
uated. I have known of him it seems to me it was a longer time than
that.
Q. What

What is your opinion as to his medical skill and ability ?
A. I think that he is a physician eminently well qualified to practise.
Q. And what is his standing in the profession?
A. It is of the best.

Q. One other thing I believe I wanted to ask you about was the clothing of the inmates. Was your attention called to that in the Long Island institution the last time you were there?

A. When I was there I examined the clothing of the men. It seemed to be sufficient for that time of the year.

Q. And some criticism has been made of the garments that the women who were confined to their beds in the hospital wear. make any examination of those or did you see any of those garments ?

A. I saw some short night-dresses, that are used frequently in hos. pitals, and I also saw a certain number of white skirts.

Q. Well, now, in regard to the night-dresses; were they the proper kind of garments for that use?

A. Well, they are very frequently used in hospitals and are very, very convenient, particularly if a person has rheumatism or is unable to use her arm.

Did you

RECROSS-EXAMINATION.

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Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) Doctor, this hospital that you speak of being down there wasn't a city institution, was it? – this hospital last summer?

A. No, it was a private hospital.
Q. Dr. Harold Ernst was in charge of it, wasn't he ?

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