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A. He was.

Q. And all that the city did was to offer to Dr. Harold Ernst facilities in the use of the building for carrying out his philanthropic pur

poses?

A. That is all -- and transportation, of course.
Q. And transportation to the island, that is all ?
A. Yes.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION.

Q. (By Mr. REED.) Of course you understand, doctor, that this building was furnished by the city and put in order by the city ? A.

Yes.
Q. And placed at the disposal of these people without cost?

A. Without any cost so far as I know. I had nothing to do with the management of the hospital.

Q. But the management of the hospital, the nursing, and all that, was supplied by subscription ?

A. By subscription, yes.
This ended the cloctor's examination.
Ald. Lee moved to adjourn. Lost.

Mr. REED was asked by the chairman if he had another witness to put on.

Mr. REED. All I have to say in that matter is this, Mr. Chairman, that Dr. Ernst is coming here at the next hearing and I would like to use him when he comes, for his convenience. With that understanding, I am ready to put on Dr. Cogswell.

Mr. BRÄNDEIS.— I will agree that you may suspend the examination of Dr. Cogswell and put Dr. Erust on at any time when he appears.

Mr. REED.-- That is what I should ask, if Dr. Cogswell goes on the stand to-night, that I should hare the privilege of withdrawing him when Dr. Ernst comes.

Mr. RILEY.— Yes, let us have him.
Mr. REED.-- No, I don't think I will just now.
Mr. RILEY.– Why not put him on?
Mr. REED.— We will, when he gets ready.

The CHAIRMAN.- If this talk goes on the chance is that we will get no witness to-night.

Mr. REED.- Well, I don't think there is any reason why Dr. Cogswell should be rushed on the stand to please Brother Riley or Brother Brandeis, and I don't propose that it should be done. I have got up here to make a statement to the committee and to ask

The CHAIRMAN.– The committee are waiting to hear it.

Mr. REED.— And I have been interrupted. But I think the committee practically understands my statement in regard to Dr. Ernst and that that thing is very satisfactorily settled. Now, there may be a long wait for Dr. Ernst and another physician, and I would like to have that same rule apply to him, if they come together.

Mr. BRANDEIS.- Who is the other?

Mr. Reev.– That I may be allowed to follow one with the other or put them on when they are here. I intended to arrange the thing myself without asking any favors of the committee. If Dr. Ernst had stayed here tv-night I should have done it. But as he is obliged to go way I cannot do it without asking the committee to allow me to put those two men on when they come.

Mr. RILEY.- We will agree to anything if you will only call Dr. Cogswell.

Mr. REED.-- All right - it is agreed then, that Dr. Ernst and the other physician shall be put on when they come and that Dr. Cogswell shall be taken from the stand.

Ald. LEE.-- Well, I would like to know who is agreeing to that?

Mr. REED.

Well, if it isn't agreed, let us have the matter settled one way or the other.

Ald. LEE.- This committee will have something to say.

Mr. PROCTOR. Well, I understand counsel to igree not to oppose any such movement. That is one step in advance of anything we have had heretofore.

Ald. LEE. — The way we have been going, the counsel for both sides have been running the committee, witnesses, and everybody else, up to date.

Mr. REED. — Well, I am ready to put Dr. Cogswell on now with that understanding, that I may withdraw him when these other witnesses can be procured.

Ald. FOTTLER, Mr. Chairman, I move that the witness be put on with that understanding - 1 more that the counsel have the privilege of putting Dr. Cogswell on with the understanding that if the iwo witnesses he refers to appear, be shall have the privilege of taking Dr. Cogswell off and putting these other two on.

Ald. LEE. I want to be consistent in the vote on that, because I refused to allow Dr. Prescott to go on, and I will vote no.

The question was put, and the Chair being in doubt asked for a show of hands. Alderman Fottler's motion was carried.

CHARLES H. COGSWELL, M.D. – Sworn.

Q. (By Mr. REED.) What is your full name?
A. Charles Hale Cogswell.
Q. You are a physician, Dr. Cogswell?
A.

I am.
Q. You are at present superintendent of the Home for Paupers at
Long Island, are you not?

A. I am.
Q. Where were you educated ?

A. I was educated in a small school in the city of Haverhill in my early youth, and I was educated in the public schools of the town of North Easton, graduated from the high school there, and entered Dartmouth College, graduated from Dartmouth College in 1880, entered the Hari ard Medical School in the fall of that year, and graduated in the spring of 1883.

Q. After your graduation from the Harvard Medical school what further education or experience have you had as a physician?

A. I served a term as house officer in the Boston lying-in Hospital, and then went into private practice. I was at one time connected with the out-patient department of the Massachusetts General Hospital.

Q. And where then did you go?

A. I was then appointed assistant port physician and stationed at Deer Island, which position I filled until October 1, 1887, when I was appointed port physician, and at the same time I was ex-officio assistant resident physician at the hospital of Deer Island. Well, when I was assistant port physician I was also one of the attending physicians in the hospital at Deer Island, -- after 1885, I think, officially. Of course, previously to that time the assistant port physicians practised in the hospital there, but not through the city ordinance. I won't be sure as to the date, but I think that was when the assistants were put in officially as practising physicians there. Of course they took the place.

Q. Then you had the hospital experience at Deer Island ?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. While you were in the Quarantine Department?
A. I did.
Q. And how long was that service there?

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Qu

A. Well, as I say, from August 20, 1883, to March 20, 1893.

Q. And were there any other hospitals or were there any other medical work under your charge at that time besides Deer Island ?

A. Of course I had charge of the hospitals at Gallop's Island the Quarantine Hospital

Q. At Gallop's Island ?
A. At Gallop's Island. That was one of my duties as port physician.

Q. Well, then you had an experience cf some ten years in the Quarantine Department?

A. I did.

Q. And how many of those ten were you at the head of the department?

A. From October 1, 1887, to March 20, 1893.

Q. And during that time was there any fear of the introduction of cholera into the city ?

A. There was, on two different occasions.

Q Was that during your charge of the department, or when you were assistant ?

A. The first was when I was assistant. . There was not such fear at that time. I believe that it didn't get as far as the British possessions at that time, the British Isles; but the second and the greatest was in the spring and summer of 1892, when I had charge of the department.

Q. And the measures that were taken to prevent the introduction of that plague were taken under your superintendence ?

A. They were.

Q. Now, what other diseases, contagious diseases, was it your duty to guard against in that department ?

Ă. Well, all contagious diseases small-pox, diphtheria, yellow fever, measles, scarlet fever, and at a later period we took off typhoid fever, typhus fever.

Q. And during all these years of your service there you were making a study of all the diseases that you hare named, and providing and carrying out remedies to prevent the introduction of any of those diseases ?

A. I was.

Q. And during that time did you have any actual experience in the treitment of those diseases?

A. I did.
Q. The cholera never reached here, you said?
A. It nerer did.

Q. Now, what diseases in the time that you were there — what different cases were you active in the treatment of, in the Quarantine Department

of those serious diseases? A. Small-pox, diphtheria, measles, scarlet ferer, typhoid fever, and we did have one or two cises conralescing from yellow fever. We never had any cases of yellow fever, though, come in while I was there.

Q. You are, as I understand it, à des endant of a physician. Wils your father a physician ?

A. Yes, sir, he was.
Q. And were there other physicians in the family?

A. Well, my father was a physician and my grandfather was a physician and my great-grandfather was a physician. Q. (By Mr. RILEY.) And you have inherited it?

Some don't seem to think so. Q. (By Mr. REED.) The Alderman suggests that I ask this question

whether or not, during your term as port physician, iny case of leprosy ever came under your charge or your observation ?

A. There did.
Q. Will you tell us when that was?
A. I think it was in the fall or summer of 1888. I wouldn't be

A.

exactly sure as to the date. It was either the fall of 1888 or the spring of 1889. I think it was in 1888. We had one case, — only had one case

— a woman.

Q. That came in on a vessel?
A. Came in on a steamer.
Q. Well, where did you treat that case ? What did you do?

A. Well, the case wasn't treated to any great extent. She was taken to Gallop's Island and quarantined there for, I think, two weeks - either one or two weeks. Then she was deported — sent her back.

Q. Are you il member of any medical societies ?
A. I am a member of the Massachusetts Medical Society, that is all.
Q. Did you ever attend a meeting of that society ?

A. I did. I had the pleasure last summer of hearing Dr. Fitz lecture, deliver the annual oration.

Q. Do you belong to the Suffolk Conference ?
A. I do.
Q. Have you ever attended the meetings?
A. I have.
Q. Ever speak there?
A. I never did.

Q. You said that the Massachusetts Medical Society was the only society to which you belonged. I presume that the Suffolk Conference is a part of that?

A. The Suffolk district is a part of the Massachusetts Medical Society.

Q. The Suffolk Conference is a part of the Massachusetts Medical Society, is it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, doctor, I am going to ask you to begin your statement to the committee. Mrs. Lincoln appeared here at the first hearing with it statement which was presented to the committee, and I now ask you to present a statement.

Mr. BRANDEIS. In writing?
Mr. REED. He can present it as he sees fit.
Mr. BRANDEIS. Perhaps he can and perhaps he can't.

Mr. REED. That is very true -- perhaps he can and perhaps he can't.

Ald. FOTTLER. As I understand it, the committee voted not to adjourn a little while ago, with the understanding that they would adjourn at ten o'clock. Now, it seems to me as Dr. Cogswell is to begin a statement after these preliminary questions the statement might occupy perhaps an hour's time, and I move that we adjourn.

Mr. REED. Well, is there any objection to his presenting a statement?

Mr. RILEY. Yes. Let him give his testimony.
Mr. BRANDEIS. Yes, but not a written statement.

Ald. FOTTLER I only made that motion because I heard that there was a statement, and thought, naturally, it would take quite a long time to present.

The CHAIRMAN. Perhaps it would be well enough to hear what the counsel have to say in regard to this.

Mr. RILEY. — We will have no statements only evidence. That is what I understand.

Mr. BRANDEIS. - I only want to know what is proposed. If Dr. Cogswell proposes to talk, he undoubtedly has the right to talk as a part of his testiniony. If he proposes to read, I object to his reading anything.

Ald. LEE. How about Mrs. Lincoln ?

Mr. BRANDEIS. It was requested that she should state in writing her charges, and she did it, at the request of Mr. Curtis.

Mr. CURTIS. No, sir.
Mr. BRANDEIS. Let us see.
Mr. CURTIS. Yes, let me see. I will stand by the record.

Mr. RILEY. - Doctor, you prefer to answer questions, of course ? He doesn't want carefully prepared statemehts made by counsel.

Mr. PROCTOR. - l would ask if counsel are to be held here while Brother Brandeis searchies the records?

Mr. BRANDEIS. It was requested that I should search the records.
Mr. PROCTOR. You suggested that you could find something.
Mr. BRANDEIS. I can.

Mr. Curtis says
Mr. CURTIS. Where is this?

Mr. BRANDEIS. This goes through a number of pages, and I didn't want to read it all, but on the 8th page, in the course of the discussion, Mr. Curtis requests statements in writing.

Mr. CURTIS. - I was speaking then of the charges – that that is the way to try a case, to have the charges in writing, and I say so now.

Mr. BRANDEIS. Mrs. Lincoln said, “My charges are specific, and are in writing," and Mr. Curtis said, “I am glad to know that that is the case in regard to at least one of the institutions, that Mrs. Lincoln has prepared her charges in writing, and is ready to submit them to the committee. I expected that Mrs. Lincoln would come prepared, and I am glad she has." Then the chairman asked, “Do the charges cover more than one institution?" I said,

I said, “Mrs. Lincoln proposes to confine her remarks and evidence to the pauper institutions,” to “ Long Island.” When Mr. Curtis said, “ Now, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I understand that in regard to Long Island we are to have specifications in writing, and that the counsel will have an opportunity to examine those specifications and see what they have to meet," and in pursuance of that Mrs. Lincoln did make her statement in writing and presented it as requested by Mr. Curtis.

The CHAIRDIAN. -- Have you any argument to make to the committee ? If so we will hear it. Mr. BRANDEIS. – I say,

I say, Mr. Chairman, that we have in this case endeavored as far as possible to assimilate the practice to that which prevails in court.

Mr. PROCTOR, Oh, pardon me while I laugh. That is a joke.

Mr. BRANDEIS. Especially under the insistence of Brothers Proctor and Curtis, and to permit the most important witness in this case to come here and present a written statement instead of presenting himself for examination as a witness, as he woull in an ordinary examination in court, is something that is obviously improper and should not be permitted. It can only be done for the purpose

Mr. PROCTOR – You don't mean to say, Brother Brandeis, that you object to Dr. Cogswell's making any sort of a defence that he can ?

Mr. BRANDEIS. -1 don't think that Dr. Cogswell can make much of a defence if he sticks to the facts, but I think Dr. Coyswell can if he is allowed to make any statement he pleases to present a story which reads very well 10 a man who hasn't the opportunity of cross-examination.

Mr. Reev.-- You will have an opportunity.

Mr. BRANDEIS.— I say if any statement is admitted here in writing, that statement is offered for one purpose only not for the purpose of influencing these gentlemen here or any person who is here and who hears the evidence or hear's Dr. Cogswell's cross-examination, but that it is put in that it may then go into the newspapers, as my Brother Riley suggested, with the payment of proper compensation, and that that story may thus go to the world. That is the reason why I object to any. thing being written and ptesented here in this way, because it is opposed to everything reasonable and everything common and according to establish procedure in proceedings of this sort. We have had one written statement. We had that written statement from Brother Reed, which

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