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showed me around the institution and introduced me to the women in the hospital, and then we went downstairs and the men were at dinner, and he went into the dining-room and I stood just inside the door and he stood about half-way down the dining-room. He called the inmates to order, or tried to, and said he would like their attention for a few minutes, that he wanted to introduce their new superintendent. Well, instead of coming to order it seemed to me that they tried to make more noise than they had been making previously. Some of them scuffled their feet and banged their plates on the table and made a noise with their knives and forks. I wasn't two-thirds of the distance across this room away from Mr. Galvin and I could hardly hear what he said, and when he got through he said I might like to say something to them. I had always heard it said that Mr. Galvin had been a father to the men over there, that he had been very kind and indulgent, and had done everything he could for them. So I said, "Now, men, I will not call you gentlemen, because you have not acted as such. The way that you have treated Mr. Galvin, who has been so kind to you in the past, is a shame and a disgrace to any set of men.' 1 said, "I have come over here to do the best that I can for you, and I shall treat you all as well as I know how as long as you behave yourselves. When you don't, and do not obey the rules and regulations of this institution, you will have to take the consequences." As near as I rememember, those were the exact words that I used. If they are not exact they are pretty near it. And they didn't make any noise.
Q. (By Mr. RILEY.) That is, doctor, your speech didn't produce any applause?
A. That wasn't what I said, Mr. Riley.
Q. (By Mr. REED.) It has been said that one Herrick died in the hospital from a piece of meat being stuck in his trachea. Now, would a bristle probang be the proper instrument with which to remove that piece of meat, as Dr. Parker has testified?
A. It would not.
Q. What is a bristle probang?
A. A bristle probang is an instrument which is used for getting out foreign bodies which have been lodged in the esophagus
Q. Well, what would be the probable result of inserting a bristle probang into the man's trachea ?
Well, probably jam the piece of meat down into his lungs. Q. Will you describe this instrument doctor - the bristle probang? A. Well, it is an instrument about a foot long, about as large as a lead-pencil, with sometimes a small sponge about half as large as a marble on the end, sometimes a piece of ivory, and at this same end there are bristles - when it is closed up— perhaps an inch long on the outside. It is a tube and there is a wire running through it, so that when you press it down in the esophagus you press this down with your finger and the bristles come out and form a circle about as big as a quarter of a dollar. Then when you pull that up, if there is anything in the esophagus it may come up with it.
Q. Are there any electric bells in the hospital?
And will you describe where they are?
There is one electric bell and speaking-tube that goes from the female side of the hospital to the office and to the doctors' rooms and there is a speaking-tube and an electric bell on the male side that goes to the office and to the doctors' rooms.
Q. Do you know what Mr. McCaffrey testified to here as your conversation with him about the McDonough woman?
A. Well, Dr. Dever told me that Mr. McCaffrey told him that I
said that if I had been called twenty minutes earlier I could have saved the woman; and up here Mr. McCaffrey testified that I said that if Dr. Dever had been called twenty minutes earlier he could have saved the woman; and the truth of the matter was that I never said anything of the kind at all and never had that conversation with Mr. McCaffrey never said anything of the kind.
Q. And would it have been possible for you to have saved the woman if you had been called twenty minutes sooner?
A. No, sir, it would not.
Q. Well, could any doctor have saved her life?
A. I don't think that they could. In fact, I know they couldn't when I was called.
What was the matter with her?
She had puerperal eclampsia.
Q. Well, did you ever make any criticism at all upon the action of Dr. Dever in that connection?
A. I never did.
And are you not satisfied that everything was done for the woman that could be done for her?
A. I am.
Q. Do you recollect what sort of a cellar this was that Mrs. Evans couldn't see down there?
A. I don't know as it was Mrs. Evans.
Q. Well, was it Mrs. Lincoln ? Some witness testified here that she couldn't see the cellar?
A. Mrs. Lincoln testified that she couldn't see the cellar, if I remember rightly, and her husband testified that he couldn't see any because there wasn't any there, only post-holes.
A. A cellar between forty and fifty feet square, three feet deep, and about one hundred post-holes anywhere from a foot and a half to three feet deep for the foundation of the corridors and wing.
Q. You have some idiots at Long Island at the hospital, I believe, haven't you, doctor?
A. I have.
Is there any other place where those unfortunates can be cared for that you know of?
A. There is not.
Any other institution, I mean not any other place in that insti
A. There is not. We have used all possible means to get them into some other institution. I thought at one time that we might get them into the School for Feeble-minded, and I wrote to them to give them a history of the cases, and they said that that wasn't any place for them, and that they didn't know of any other place except an almshouse, and that they were proper almshouse cases.
Q. Now, I want to ask you a question in regard to Dr. Parker, doctor. You have, I judge from your testimony, been hardly satisfied with him as an assistant physician there. Have you ever recommended his discharge?
A. I have.
How many times have you recommended his discharge?
And still he has not been discharged?
He was not.
Now, will you tell us why he has been allowed to remain there? A. Well, it seemed to those who were to decide upon the matter, whose judgment probably was better than mine, that if he, having given testimony derogatory to the superintendent and the Commissioners, if at that time when I recommended his discharge he was dis
charged, it would furnish ground to our critics for saying that he was discharged on that account, and that it would have a tendency to prevent anybody who was employed by any other institution from coming here and testifying, especially if they had anything to say against the institutions; and on that account they thought possibly that he had better be kept.
Q. Then, although you have recommended his discharge twice, it has been thought best not to act upon it during the pendency of these hearings?
Q. Since you testified here the other day, doctor, I understand that Dr. Parker has tendered his resignation to you?
A. He has.
Q. You have spoken of the remark made by Mrs. Evans that she would make you smart for what you had said or done. Was that remark made at the secret conference between Mrs. Evans and Dr. Parker in the operating-room when you discovered and interrupted them?
A. It was.
Q. You took charge of the hospital March or April, 1893, did you not?
A. March 20, 1893.
Q. Did you find two women there named Dartmouth Taylor and Mary Reardon?
A. I did.
Are those the two women who were taken to the institution on a a stormy day, as Mrs. Lincoln says, just before you took charge. A. I think that they were.
Q. And have you learned anything about the circumstances attending their being placed at Long Island?
A. Dr. Dever told me that when he went down to the "Bradlee" one afternoon that is, just before I went there he found these two women
on board there and Mrs. Lincoln was there and wanted him to take them off and take them to the hospital on Long Island. But he said he told her that the hospital was full and that they were going to take them to Rainsford Island. But she rather insisted on it and appealed to Mr. Galvin, who was there going to Rainsford Island, and Mr. Galvin, against the advice of Dr. Dever, finally consented to have them taken off at Long Island. But they hadn't made any preparations to take them off at Long Island, expecting them to go to Rainsford. So, as it was a very cold, wintry day, they decided to take them over to Rainsford Island and back again and then have the team ready to take them up when they came back, and that was done. I didn't understand from him, though, that they were brought down from Boston by Mrs. Lincoln.
Q. No, they came from the City Hospital, didn't they?
Q. And they were chronic cases ?
A. They were chronic cases. One had a fracture of the leg and the other had å sprained hip. The one who had a sprained hip was a very old woman. As he described it to me there wasn't anything about the day as a reason why they shouldn't have been brought down from the City Hospital or anywhere else, as far as that goes.
Q. Then the only thing that Mrs. Lincoln had to do with the affair, as you understand it, was to bring them back from Rainsford Island to Long Island?
A. That is all that I understand.
Q. They weren't any wards of hers that she brought there? A. Not that I know of. I don't think that they were. the arrangements and had them go to Long Island instead of Rainsford. Mrs. LINCOLN. They were never meant to go to Rainsford.
Mr. REED. Their going to Long Island was an arrangement between you and Mr. Galvin.
Mrs. LINCOLN. — I never saw them anywhere except on the boat. The CHAIR. And I understand she made a plea to have them taken to Long Island, with Mr. Galvin,
Mr. REED. Yes, sir.
You said in your opening that she took them down.
Mr. REED.No, I think we all understand the matter. We don't expect to satisfy you, Mr. Riley. That is too much of a task. Mr. RILEY. — I think you will find it so.
Mr. REED. I know that is a fact.
The CHAIR. Go on; go on.
Q. (By Mr. REED.) Doctor, lack of classification has been charged in your institution. Now, I want to ask you if the males are not separated from the females throughout the institution?
As far as we can.
Q. And in the hospital you have the patients classified in accordance with their diseases, do you not?
Q. Now, in your judgment is there a possibility of any further classification when the new building in process of erection is complete? A. Well, the separation of the sexes will be more complete and there will be a possibility of a somewhat better classification of the women, if such a thing
Q. Well, that would be a good idea or scheme for classification, in your judgment?
A. What would be a good scheme?
if you have ever given the matter any
A. Well, the only way that I think it could be successfully adopted would be to have separate colonies - small cottages to hold anywhere from thirty to seventy-five people — and in that way you might be able to classify them, if you wanted to reform them. If you were going in to classify them according to their ability to work and obtain a living only, why the buildings that you have there now are amply sufficient, with the exception, of course, of building workshops to have them work in, and then we would need a much larger corps of overseers to see that they did work after you had provided it for them.
Q. Well, in your judgment that would be a good plan if the city would provide the means, would it not?
A. I think it would be an excellent plan.
Q. You think it would be an excellent plan to occupy the paupers who were able-bodied as well as to classify them?
A. I do.
Q. But, as I understand you, in order to bring about that result you would require more assistance, overseers for the work, more buildings, shops, etc. ?
A. And some additional laws, I should think, in my judgment, to enable us to compel them to work.
Q. Then, according to the law which you have received from the law officers of the city of Boston up to within a recent time, you have understood that the authority to compel labor has been doubted, have you not?
A. I have.
Q. And your judgment is, that, with undoubted authority and with the means at your hand in the way of additional overseers and shops, that occupation could be introduced ?
Q. And that with a proper system of buildings and sufficient money to carry out the plan, classification could be carried still further?
It could be attempted.
Q. But as to the ultimate result of the plan you don't wish to express an opinion?
A. I do not.
Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) Dr. Cogswell, if you had been as efficient and as sympathetic a superintendent of Long Island as you have represented yourself to be, how do you account for the fact that there has been general complaint of your administration from the Board of Visitors, from officers, from ex-officers, and from inmates of the institution ?
A. Well, I account for it in this way, and when I have accounted for it as to the Board of Visitors, I have accounted for it for all, because the Board of Visitors based their complaints against me almost entirely upon discontented officers, and ex-officers, and inmates. I base it entirely on this, that when I went there I went there with the intention, as I announced in my speech to the inmates, to do the best that I could for the inmates and the institution, and in doing the best for the inmates I was doing the best for the institution.
Q. Is that all?
A. Oh, no.
Q. Who were —
Hold on. I said,
Q. I beg pardon.
Excuse me. I thought that the best thing for the inmates and the institution was to keep the inmates at work, and those that would not work to let them go; and I have followed that out, as far as I was able, not only with the inmates but also with the officers. And if you know those people down there at all well, which I don't know that you do, you know that they have a strong antipathy against work, and I don't think that the complaints that they would have you and the rest of the people imagine, were so general were general. It has been said here that I was not popular down there. I hope that I am not popular among a certain class of men down there. I think if you will go down there and inquire, you will find that I am fairly well liked and fairly popular with those with whom it would be a credit to me to be popular. Among the younger class down there I think you will find that I am not well liked, because instead of being content with getting one day's labor out of four, I have done the best that I could to get one day's labor out of one. And that I attribute as the great source of my trouble down there. Q. Is that a complete answer to my question ?
A. I don't know.
Q. Well, I mean so far as you are to make it?
A. That is as far as I am going to make it now; yes, sir.
Q. You say that in your opinion the Board of Visitors were misled by statements of officers and ex-officers and inmates?
A. I think so; yes, sir.
Who were the officers who misled the Board of Visitors?
That is what I said
Q. McCaffrey was an ex-officer?
officers and ex-officers.
Q. Dr. Parker and Mr. McCaffrey were the ones who misled them anybody else?
A. I don't know as to anybody else, because I have no means of knowing. They never told me where they got their information from and I have no means of knowing excepttng as has appeared here.