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Q. Well, they have stated in the testimony here that in addition to information which they have from time to time received from Dr. Parker they have had conversations with Miss O'Brien, with Miss Sheit, with Miss McKenny, with Miss McNamara, with Dr. Dever, with Dr. Sullivan, with Mr. Morphy and with certain other of the officials. Do you

Mr. REED. Are you quoting testimony ?

Mr. BRANDEIS. -- Yes, sir, - as to the sources of information that were given.

Mr. REED. - I don't recall all those persons.

Q. (By Mr. BRANI)EIS.) Do you mean to say that all of those others whom I have named havé misrepresented facts in regard to the condition of the institution ?

A. I do not.

Q. Do you mean to say that any of them have misrepresented the facts in regard to the condition of the institution ?

A. I have no means, Mr. Brandeis, of distingushing between what Dr Dever, and Dr. Parker told them between what Dr. Sullivan and Mr. McCaffrey told him. I don't know what these individuals told them. I simply know that they made statements which were not founded on fact. Whoever told those facts, be it Miss McNamaril, Mr. Morphy, or whoever else it might be, did not state what was so.

If you can tell me on what they based their statements from each individual, then I can come nearer to telling you whether I should say that the individual stated what was not a fact.

Q. Well, what I ask you, Dr. Cogswell and I wish you to answer that if you can

is how you account for the fact that these various persons whom I have named in the last questiou and whom the visitor's say have given them information concerning the condition at Long Island under your administration and on which they have based their conclusions how you explain the fact that that information and the statements given by those persons are of a nature to condemn your administration? Can you give any explanation ?

A. I don't think, Mr. Brandeis, that I am called upon on any such statement is you make to account for the statements of people when I don't know what statements they have made. I did not say that everything the Board of Visitors complained of was not so. I only said that the ihings were not so that were not so, and I don't know who they got them from. Some of these other people might have told the truth, for all I know

Q. Is there any reason that you know now why the Bourd of Visitors should now, and why these gentlemen here should, discredit the statements of Dr. Sullivan, Dr. Dever, Mr. Morphy, Miss O'Brien, Aliss Shea, Miss Sheehan, Miss McNimara?

Mr. REED. — Mr. Morphy is the only one who has made a statement

here yet.

The WITNESS. – I don't know what they said. What is the use of asking me a question unless you tell me what they have said?

Q. °(By Ali. BRANDEIS.) Well, Dr. Cogswell, à min of your intelligence and training must be able to recognize this fact: These visitors have testified Mrs. Evans pilrticularly, very fully, that they have made inquiries, some of them from one, and some of them from other of these people, and they have stated the result of these inquiries, and on those have been based the complaints agrivst your administration, some of which you admit, and some of which you deny. I ask you whether you can explain the fact that these various persons had united in finding fault with the administration there? I do not ask you to state whether or not it is true. You have stated that certain things that these visitor's suid were not true. But I ask you whether you can give iny explanation of the fact that there has been this general testimony against your administration ?

A. I don't see that there has been any testimony to that general effect against me.

Q. (By the CHAIRMAN.) Do you understand the question, doctor ?
A. Yes, sir; I understand the question.
Q. Now, answer it if you can.
The question was repeated.

A. Now, this is my position on the matter. Do you say that all of these people have given testimony against me?

Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) Yes, I say not against you but against your adminstration.

A. Well, against my administration ?

Q. Yes, sir; and part of it has been given here and part of it has been given to the Board of Visitors when they made the investigation and the inquiries which they made under the authority conveyed to them by the Mayor and the City Council. They had an investigation and reported upon what they have seen and what they have heard, and these were among the people whom they consulted. Now, I ask you whether you can furnish any explanation for the fact that these various persons have made to the Board of Visitors reports which condemn the administration, your administration at the island ?

The CHAIRJAN. — He has answered in relation to Parker and McCaffrey. I suppose neither of them are included in the question ?

Mr. BRANDEIS. — Neither of them are included.

A. I don't think I am called upon to explain anything of that kind, because I don't know that it is so. You have not offered it by witness none of your witnesses have said that these people have told them not one of them.

Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) You cannot offer any explanation of that fact.

A. I say it is not a fact.
Q. How do you know anything about it, sir ?

A. How do I know? You haven't proved it here, haven't brought a single witness in here who has testified to anything, except Mr. McCaffrey, Dr. Parker, and Mr. Morphy, have you?

Q. Yes. This question includes Mr. Morphy. It does not include McCaffrey and Parker. Dr. Cogswell, the Board of Visitors testified that they obtained information from each one of these people.

Yes, but they don't Q. Wait one moment, will you? Do you mean to say that the members of the Board of Visitors lied in making that statement before this committee?

A. Certainly not.

Q. Well, I ask you, if the Board of Visitors have stated that fact, which you do not deny - if they hare stated it, I ask you whether you have any explanation to offer why the Board of Visitors should not have acted upon the testimony that was given them, the information that was given them by these various people? Is there any reason ?

A. Why, but I say that they have not testified to anything of the kind.

Q. They testify that they had acted upon information there, and I ask you whether there is any explanation of it?

A: Why, they might have interviewed, say, seven, and tree of them might have testified agaiust ny administration, and four of them for my administration, and they, perhaps, thought that three of them were more worthy of belief than the other four, and have acted upon it. They haven't said here whom they got their information from ; they haven't said whether Miss O'Brien testified for my administration or to condemn it.

(Chairman Hallstram in the chair.) Q. Dr. Cogswell, you seem to be unwilling or unable to answer the


our case.

question which I put. I will put it in another way: Is there any person who either is or has been connected with the institution, besides Dr. Parker and Mr. McCaffrey, whom you would say had a grudge against you and who were inclined to represent your administration as wicked or as worse than it actually is ?

A. I don't think that I care about answering that question, Mr. Brandeis.

Q. I care about having you.

A. Well, I might unintentionally do somebody a wrong. I don't propose to do anything of the kind if I can help it.

Q. Well, I ask you for an answer to that question.
A. Well, I shall not give it.

Mr. BRANDEIS. Well, Mr. Chairman, if we are going to proceed with the cross-examination of this witness I think he will have to answer the proper questions which I put. Dr. Cogswell has taken in regard to his testimony in this case å most remarkable position. I called him as a witness and wish to examine him in chief as a part of

He declines to be sworn as a witness, his counsel declines to permit him to testify as a witness. He comes here and presents to you, Mr. Chairman, and to these gentlemen, a statement which, contrary to all laws of evidence and every reasonable method of conducting an investigation, he has prepared, which contains arguments, which contiins insinuations, and in the preparation of which he has had the benefit of eminent counsel.

The WITNESS, Do you want to testify to that under oath, Mr. Brandeis ?

Mr. REED. — I certainly object to any such statement as that. It is an unfair statement and it is untrue.

Mr. BRANDIES. It is true and I will bring it out on the evidence.
Mr. REED. It is untrue.

Mr. BRANDEIS. – Dr. C'ogswell has taken that position here, and it is perfectly unheard of. I objected, Mr. Chairman, to that statement going in, among other reasons because it contained arguments and because it must give to the public, as I believe it was designed to give, an uwfair representation of the facts in the case. You said, Mr. Chairman, and your associates said, in answer to my objections, that I should have the opportunity of the fullest cross-examination, and upon that examination I was to have the opportunity to bring out what was false in his statement. Now, Mr. Chairman, almost the first question I put to the witness he declines to answer. I ask whether this is the method in which that cross-examination, the liberty of which you have promised me, is to be conducted here?

The WITNESS. Mr. Chairman, may I say a word ?
The CHAIR. Dr. Cogswell.

The WITNESS. -My reasons for declining to answer that question are these: I do have in mind certain parties whom I think might wish to do me an injury. I cannot prove it. I do not want to get up here and say that such and such a man would do me an injury and malign the

I have not made any statements so far but what I can prove, and I am going to endearor to maintain that stand here as long as I am on the stand. If Mr. Brandeis asks me a question which I cannot answer, I do not propose to answer it to suit him. If I could say that John Jones would injure me if he could, and could give good and substantial truth for my belief, I would be willing to stand up here like a man and

But I am not going to take that ground unless I have proof that a man would say anything to injure me. I would be injuring that man more, perhaps, than he would ever dream of injuring me, and I don't think that you, as fair-minded men is you are, will say that I have got to say that such and such a man would injure me if he got a chance.

Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) No.

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say so.

A. That is what you want me to say.
Q. I do not, sir. I want you to tell the truth.
A. That is what I propose to tell — the truth.

Mr. BRANDEIS. — And I (lon't want you to withhold any of the truth. If you beliere all these persons I hare named have no ground for grudge against you and that consequently their statements can be relied upon absolutely by this committee or any one, I want you to say it. If, on the other hand, you believe that any of these persons cannot be relied upon by this committee and ought not to be relied upon by the Board of Visitors, I desire you to state it. I think, Mr. Chairman, that you see the reason for the question.

Ald. LEE. – Why not have him answer it separately, individually, and not collectivety

Mr. BRINDEIS. Yes, and he can refuse if he desires, of course.

Q: Dr. Cogswell, do you believe that Dr. Sullivan has any grudge against you, or that there exists any reason why the committee or the Board of Visitors should not bure relied upon stiitements made by bim concerning the administration of Long Island under your charge?

A. That is the same question.

The CHAIRMAX. Mr. l'itness, that is not, according to the Chair, the same question.

The stenographer repeated the last question and also the following question :

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which I put.

Q. Dr. Cogswell, you seen to be unwilling or unable to answer the question

I will put it in another way: Is there any person who either is or has been connected with the institution, besides Dr. Parker and Mr. MeCaffrey, whom you would say had a grudge against you and who were inclined to represent your administration as wicked or as worse than it actually is?

Mr. REED. — Mr. Chairman. I desire to say a word. If the officers or ex-officers referred to had testified here that would make it proper to ask the doctor some such question is this. Dr. Sullivan has not testified here, and its to all these people included in that question who have not appeared here is witnesses it seems to me unfair to ask Dr. Cogswell any such question is that. He does not kuow what they said. They have not appeared here as witnesses.

Dr. BRANDEIS Jr. Chairman, I do not wonder that the counsel objects to the answering of the question, but I do not beliere that the objections have any foundation in reason or any fairness. Dr. Cogswell has undertaken to account for this almost unanimous testimony i gainst him from officers, ex-officers, and inmates, upon either one of two grounds. In l'espect to those witnesses who have appeared here and specifically stated facts against him he has said that they were prejudicell, and that for one l'eason or another, which does not very fully appear, those witnesses had grounds for testifying against him and misrepresenting the facts. In regard to the others, irho were the source of information and investigation of the Board of Visitors, he has said that their statements were uitrustworthy, and that in an investigation for the purpose of ascertaining facts they ought to have gone to a greater extent to him and to have relied upon him. Now, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, it appears very clearly in the testimony wbat method of inrestigation was pursued by the Boilrd of Visitors, and that in reaching the conclusion which they did reach they did not rely upon Mr. McCaffrey's statement, and that there is no one thing in their report which rests wholly upon Jr. JcCaffrey. They do state that they relied much and had good reason to rely upon Dr. Parker, but that they confirmed the facts testified to or stated to them by Dr. Parker from other witnesses, who gave them also i great deal of other testimony.

Now, Dr. Cogswell in his argument because it can hardly be called a statement- in his argument has attempted to induce you gentlemen to believe that the testimony upon which the Board of Visitors is acting, il part of which has been put in before you, was unreliable because of an alleged prejudice which existed, as he says, on the part of Mr. McCafirey and Dr. Parker. I desire to know whether the other avenues of information which were open to the Board of Visitors were also poisoned by that like prejudice, and I believe, Mr. Chairman, that this witness should be directed to answer, because he comes here and the only way in which he attempts to meet a large part of the statements directeil specifically against him is to say that the witnesses were prejudiced against him. Now, I want to know whether those witnesses were prejudiced, and I will ask him about that later; but I want now to know whether the other people, the inmates and the officers and ex-officers, were prejudiced, and find out why they were prejudiced.

Ald. LEE. — Well, I would suggest that that question be divided. Mr. BRANDEIS. How would the Alderman suggest that it be divided? Ald. LEE. – I will ask the stenographer to repeat the question, and when he comes along to a point where I think it should be divided I will ask him to stop.

(The stenographor read: “Dr. Cogswell, do you beliere that Dr. Sullivan has any grudge against you)

A. I hare no means of information on that subject. I don't know what Dr. Sullivan bas testified 10. If he has it grudge against me he has probably sobie grounds for it.

Q. (By the CHATRYAN.) Du you know of illy yrulye that he has ?

A. I don't know of any grounds that he would have for having it grudge against me. I didn't know until recently that Mr. McCaffrey told Dr. Derer that I blamed him for the death of the IcDonough

I don't know what Mr. McCaffrey has tolal Dr. Sullivan. Dr. Sullivan hasn't wbosomed himself to me.

The C'IIAIRJAY. That is an answer to the question.

Mr. BRANDEIS. He has not answered it specifically. I asked him whether he believed that Dr. Sullivan has any grudge against him.

Ald. LEE. — He says he does not know of iny.
The W'ITNESS. – I dou't know of any.
Mr. BRANDEIS. - Well, do you believe that he has?
Ald. LEE. How do you know but what I have a grudge against



Mr. BRANDEJS. Oh, I am sure you couldn't hare.
Ald. LEE. – That is a pretty bard thing to answer, you know.

Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) Do you know of any reason why the Board of Visitors should not hare believed the statements made to them or to any of their number by Dr. Sullivan ?

A. I don't know what statements he made

Q. Is there any reason why they should hare disbeliered statements concerning the administration of Long Island made to them by Dr. Sullivan ?

A. They certainly would if he made them the same as Mr. McCaffrey made statements.

Q. (By the CHAIRMAN.) Mr. Witness, will you state to this committee whether you beliere Dr. Sullivan to be a man of truth and veracity and whether his word should be belierel?

A. Certainly I will. I believe Dr. Sulliriu intends to tell the truth.

Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) Well, do you know of any reason why the Board of Visitors should not have trusted, placed faith in the statements milde to them or to any of their number by Dr. Sullirian?

A. Yes, I do.
Q. What is it?
A. Well, he is a great friend of Mr. McCaffrey, so I hare been in-

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