formed. This is only the basis of my belief that he might possibly have based some of his statements on what Mr. McCaffrey told him. If he did he was liable to go astray.

Q. Other than that do you know of any reason why the Board of Visitors should not have believed the statements made to them or any of their number by Dr. Sullivan ?

Mr. CURTIS. I don't know how the witness can be expected to know what Dr. Sullivan may have told the Board of Visitors.

The CHAIRMAN. That question is not asked him, but simply whether, in his opinion, the man who gave the testimony should be believed.

Mr. CURTIS. - He is assuming that he gave certain evidence, certain testimony.

The CHAIRMAN. Whether he gave him any testimony or not, it is simply a matter of whether he believes the doctor should be believed. Mr. CURTIS. - I don't object, of course.

Mr. REED. He has answered that question, of course, Mr Chairman. It is not fair to ask him whether that statement should be credited until he knows what the statement is. Dr. Sullivan might make a statement so absolutely unreliable and absurd that nobody would believe him. He should know that statement first before he is asked whether he credits it.

(By request of Mr. Brandeis the stenographer repeated the last question.)

A. I should want to know what Dr. Sullivan's statement were before I answer any question of that kind.

Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) I asked you, Dr. Cogswell, whether you knew of any reason why any member of the Board of Visitors or the whole Board should not have believed any statements made to them concerning the administration of Long Island by Dr. Sullivan? You see I anı asking whether you know of any reason.

A. You were asking that for the purpose, then, of letting out the Board in case they did believe something that wasn't so?

The CHAIRMAN. Well, that is not for the witness to assume.

The WITNESS.

The CHAIRMAN.

swer it.

is ?

The WITNESS.

But what I am getting at is this

There is a question, Mr. Witness. You can an

I said I believed

- –

The CHAIRMAN.

The WITNESS.

You do not care what the purpose of the question

No, this is my ground: I said I beleived Dr. Sullivan was a man of truth, and if he told me a thing was so I should naturally be inclined to believe it. But I should not believe it on his statement unless I had investigated it, any more than I would anybody else. But if you say, do I know of any grounds that he would have for having a grudge against me? I might say I don't know of any grounds, and yet he might have a grudge against me

Mr. BRANDEIS. I ask the stenographer to repeat the last question. (The stenographer repeated Mr. Brandeis' last question.)

A. No, I don't.

Mr. CURTIS. Now, I desire to say at this point, Mr. Chairman, that Brother Brandeis might have saved all this trouble by putting Dr. Sullivan on the stand. He was here in the anteroom several nights and they did not put him on the stand.

Q. (By Mr BRANDEIS.) Dr. Cogswell, to your knowledge or belief has Dr. Dever any grudge against you?

A. I think he had pretty good grounds for one, yes, if he believed what Mr. McCaffrey said at the time when he was being interviewed by the Board of Visitors.

Q. You think he did have a grudge against you?

A.

I don't know.

Q. Well, what grounds did he have for having a grudge against you?

A. Well, Mr. McCaffrey told him that I told him that he was practically responsible for the death of the McDonough woman. I should think that that was sufficient grounds.

Q. Is there any reason, do you know of any reason why the Board of Visitors should not have believed any of the statements made tu taen. or any of their number by Dr. Dever concerning the administration of Long Island while you were superintendent ?

A. Please read that over.

(The stenographer repeated the question.)

Mr. CURTIS. What statement did Dr. Dever make to the Board of Visitors? We don't know.

Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) Would you like the question read again, Dr. Cogswell?

A. No. As Mr. Curtis has suggested, I don't know of any reason why the Board of Visitors should have doubted any of these men if they made reasonable statements. They had no reason, as I understand it, for doubting the word possibly of any of these people if they made a fairly reasonable statement, but still I shouldn't think that they would have accepted them on their simple statement.

Q. That is, you think they would not have been justified in accepting Dr. Dever's statement as to conditions at Long Island?

A. No, I do not. I don't think they would be justified in accepting anybody's statement down there as to the condition of affairs at Long Island where they could have got for themselves a competent proof.

Q. You think they were not justified in accepting statements if all the persons whom I have named in this examination should concur more or less in various facts?

A. I can conceive of a great many circumstances that they might all testify to, and still I should accept their word.

Q. Not if they were against you?

A. Not necessarily; no.

Q. Do you know or have you reason to believe that Dr. Murphy has any grudge against you has or had any grudge against you?

A.

I don't know of any reason that he had for it.

Q. Do you know of any reason why the Board of Visitors would not have been justified in relying upon statements concerning your administration at Long Island made to them by Dr. Murphy?

A. Certainly.

Mr. CURTIS. How do you know he made any?

The WITNESS. Certainly they ought not to rely on his statements as to my administration.

Mr. CURTIS. We object. We don't know that he made them.

(By request of Mr. Brandeis the stenographer repeated the last answer.)

Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) Do you believe Dr. Murphy to be worthy of belief? In your opinion is Dr. Murphy reliable and worthy of belief?

A. When he is talking about something that he knows what he is talking about.

Ald. LEE. — You mean now the drug clerk, Morphy?

Mr. BRANDEIS. -- No, Dr. Murphy, one of the assistants.

Ald. LEE. Not Morphy?

Mr. BRANDeis. No he was a drug clerk, as you call him, but I asked for Murphy, one of the assistants.

Ald. LEE. — Well, I never heard of him before.

Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) Do you know or have you reason to believe that Dr. Noyes has any grudge against you?

A. I might as well say here now that I wouldn't say that anybody had any grudge against me. I won't say that anybody has got a grudge against me.

Q. Do you know or have you any reason to believe that Dr. Noyes would have made any false statements concerning your administration at Long Island to the Board of Visitors?

A. don't know that he would.

Q. Do you know whether Dr. Harkins has any grudge, or had any grudge against you, or have you any reason to believe that Dr. Ilarkins had any grudge against you?"

A. If Dr. Harkins testified to anything against me, he is testifying to something he didn't know anything about, because he wasn't there during my administration.

Q. I asked you whether you know or have any reason to believe that Dr. Harkins had any grudge against you?

Mr. REED. I don't see how that is material, Mr. Chairman.

Q. (By Ald. LEE.) Did you ever have any connection with Dr. Harkins officially as superintendent while you were superintendent at Long Island ?

A. Not while I was superintendent at Long Island; no, sir; I did not none whatever.

Ald. LEE. Give us the next one.

Mr. BRANDEIS. Well, wait.

Q. Do you know of any reason why the Board of Visitors should have discredited any statement that may have been made to them by Dr. Harkins concerning the administration of Long Island?

Mr. REED. Now, I object to that.

The WITNESS. - I don't think I should answer that question.

Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) You won't?

A.

No, I don't think so. I don't feel that I could answer that question to my own satisfaction and be sure that I was telling the facts, and so I don't think that I should be called upon to answer that.

Mr. RILEY. Insist that it should be answered, Brother Brandeis, or throw out his entire statement

Mr. REED. I don't see how it is material what Dr. Harkins said about Dr. Cogswell. He had nothing to do with him. Mr. Brandeis might as well take the “Directory" and go through it from one end to the other and ask Dr. Cogswell in regard to every man whose name appeared there whether he had a grudge against him. You have got to have this stopped somewhere.

The CHAIRMAN. The Chair will allow that question to be answered. (The stenographer repeated the question: "Do you know of any reason why the Board of Visitors should have discredited any statement that may have been made to them by Dr. Harkins concerning the administration of Long Island ? ")

The CHAIRMAN. The committee is waiting for your answer, doctor. The WITNESS. Well, I could imagine if he undertook to testify before me of something that I knew that he didn't know anything about, I should somewhat discredit his testimony.

Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) That is the only reason?

A.

I said that would be reason enough to me.

Q. Is there any other reason I want the reasons.

Mr. CURTIS. Did he testify to the Board of Visitors of what occurred while he wasn't there?

The WITNESS. If the Board of Visitors called in Dr. Harkins to testify to my administration of Long Island, knowing as they did that he never has had any connection with my administration of Long Island, didn't know anything about it, I should think that it was a very curious. thing to do.

Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) Is there any reason for discrediting the

statement of Dr. Harkins? Is there any reason to believe that Dr. Harkins would tell an untruth about the administration of Long Island?

A. I should think that if he undertook to testify regarding my administration at Long Island that there was great danger of his not telling the truth.

Q. You think that Dr. Harkins would lie concerning your administration at Long Island?

A. Well, it depends somewhat on what you mean by the word "lie."

Q. A lie is to tell an intentional falsehood intentionally to tell a falsehood?

A. I don't know that Dr. Harkins would intentionally tell a falsehood. Do you suppose I am going to sit here or stand here and say that I believe the man would tell a lie when I don't know what he said, don't know what he had said?

Ald. LEE. Well, is there any evidence that Dr. Harkins has told the Board of Visitors, Mr. Brandeis? Dr. Harkins has not been brought here.

Mr. BRANDEIS.

Why do you stickle at Dr. Harkins?

Ald. LEE. Well, as you go on to each individual we want to get the facts, but I don't see what the bearing of this is, and we are getting a great deal of testimony here.

Mr. BRANDEIS. Well, this has a great deal of bearing, and I will state again, as I have stated before, what the bearing is. There has been a great detail of testimony here.

Ald. LEE. An abundance of it which the committee will have to cut out, you know, when they come to it, by the sheet.

Mr. BRANDEIS. Now, Dr. Cogswell has undertaken to dispose of such testimony as has been put in against him by showing - by arguing, perhaps, rather than by showing- by arguing that these witnesses were prejudiced against him, that one of them had a grudge against him because he didn't get a Christmas vacation.

Mr. REED. Dr. Cogswell didn't say that. I said it.
Mr. BRANdeis. So that was you?

Mr. REED. Yes, sir.

Mr. BRANdeis. - Well, that was his counsel.

Mr. REED. You had better put me on the stand.

Mr. BRANDEIS.—I would be delighted to have so intelligent a wit

ness.

Mr. REED. Thanks. I could tell you all about that if you want to know.

Mr. BRANDEIS.- Now, I desire, as I stated before, Mr. Aldermen, to get this witness' testimony as to whether this prejudiced source of information which has been referred to was confined to two men, or whether it extended to that vast number who had united in condemning the administration at Long Island.

Ald. LEE. — I don't want to delay the investigation, but I want to get at the facts, if we can. If we are going to reach our conclusions within the next ten or fifteen days' time it is time for us to get at facts. Now, as I understand it, Dr. Cogswell has refuted in his opening address to the committee, which the learned counsel claims was an argument, every charge that was made by every witness who took the stand here. Now, Dr. Harkins has not been here, Dr. Sullivan has not been here, Dr. Dever has not been here. Simply upon the statements made upon the direct or cross examination of the Board of Visitors they ask Dr. Cogswell now to take the stand here and say that some man lied who has not testified either for or against him. That is not fair, it is not honest, and it is not just. Mr. Chairman, let him testify to all the facts concerning his administration, but don't ask him to take the stand here and

say that some man lied when he doesn't know what he has said. Supposing I asked the doctor here if he believed it was Mrs. Evans who lied, on account of something that somebody else may have said. IIe would probably take the same position that I would.

Mr. BRANDEIS. What?

Ald. LEE. - That I don't believe that Mrs. Evans would lie.
Mr. BRANDEIS. - You would be perfectly right in your position.

Ald. LEE. But the sources of information may not have been such as I would have looked for were I one of the Board of Visitors. I am not going to argue the case now, Mr. Brandeis, and I am going to quit, because I may want to get away in a short time and you may want to cross-examine me.

You don't believe the visitors at all?

Mr. RILEY. Ald. LEE. Not while we pay $13,500 to three men to look after our institutions. If I were Mayor of Boston and had three commissioners whom I did not have confidence enough in to feel that they could properly take charge of the institutions under them, with the citizens of Boston paying them $13,500 a year, I would cut their heads off in a minute. (Applause.) That is the position I take. But the charge is as to the inefficiency, mismanagement of the institutions, not alone on Long Island, but of all the institutions, whether pauper institutions or penal institutions. Mr. Chairman, I do not want, as I said a moment ago, to argue this case now, and I am not going to do so. I shall stand here, by the will of a kind Providence, if I may be so allowed, when this committee gets through, and state my position, and I will certainly weigh all the evidence that is brought before the committee. There is a lot of it, Mr. Chairman, that should be thrown out.

Mr. BRANDeis. That argument of Dr. Cogswell's, for instance. Ald. LEE. — That is all right- I might have thrown that out if I had been the chairman; but I say, Mr. Chairman, let us get down to business. Let us get at the facts, if we are ever going to get through. I know Mr. Brandeis, and I feel satisfied that he wants to get at the facts; but don't ask a man to say that another man lies when he does not know what he has said not even whether he has said anything against him or anything for him. Let us get down to the people who have testified here and ask him if he believes they lie.

Mr. BRANDeis. I do not want him to say that the man lies, because I believe he tells the truth.

Ald. LEE. What?

Mr. BRANDEIS.-I believe the man told the truth.

Ald. LEE. Well, that is a question for this committee to determine when they come to consider the evidence- whether it is Dr. Cogswell or some other men who have taken the stand here and who have lied.

Mr. BRANDEIS. Mr. Alderman, I wish to say that, joining with you in that sincere desire to end this investigation at an early date, I shall without any ruling of the Chair act upon the suggestion which you have made.

Ald. LEE.-Thank you.

Mr. BRANDEIS.-- But I desire to say merely one thing before going on with the investigation, and it is this, that when this argument was introduced and it was suggested by one of the Aldermen that what they desired was to get information and to get it quickly, I stated that that argument if introduced would defeat that purpose; that the putting in of such a document, which is in evidence and which is contrary to the accredited methods of obtaining information upon which men are to act in the important affairs in life, would be like many an alleged short cut that it would lead to a great deal of lengthening of the investigation, and that the only way for you gentlemen to get at the truth is to adopt that method which has been proved by the experience of mankind in all trials. to allow questions to be put and answers to