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ing that a man is prejudiced or bringing in a man's name here and asking Dr. Cogswell if he is prejudiced, it is not to be attributed to Dr. Cogswell. It came from Mr. Brandeis himself. Now, Mr. Brandeis has stated here that Dr. Cogswell has answered such evidence as has been put in against him. That is true. That is just what he has done. Mr. Brandeis undertakes to ask him to criticise certain statements that were made to the Board of Visitors. I say that is manifestly unfair, unless those statements are first read before Dr. Cogswell.

Mr. BRANDEIS. Mr. Chairman, I wish the suggestions that Mr. Reed has made had a little bearing on this point under consideration. Dr. Cogswell, like a great many people who are accused, undertakes to meet accusations by attacking those who accuse him. It doesn't make any difference who it is, they may be the most disinterested and publicspirited people in the community. They may be officials in great respect at the institutions, they may be persons who have been respected in the past and to whom he himself has given recommendatious. They may be people whom he still has in his employ. But anybody who ventures to say anything to the discredit of Dr. Cogswell and if those persons are to be believed, they cannot say much without saying things to his discredit- every person who has stated those things, no matter to whom he states them

Mr. CURTIS. Is that an argument?

Mr. BRANDEIS. - Is he to be disregarded because he is prejudiced? Now, when a jury of twelve convict a man because they think him guilty, or when one man condemus another because he thinks him guilty some people say they are prejudiced, other people say they are correct in their judgment. Now, Dr. Cogswell in his answer here, when I asked him if there was any reason why the statement made to Father McAvoy by Mr. Parmelee should not be believed, says he was prejudiced. Now, having said he was prejudiced, having answered that question, he must allow me to pursue the investigation further, and to find out whether it is a fact that he was prejudiced, or whether he was not prejudiced at all, and the doctor, under the guise of the term he has used, is concealing some fact to his own detriment which was connected with Mr. Parmielee. To say that, having testified that he is prejudiced, he can stop there and say, I won't tell you why; I won't let you cross-examine me further," is practically to deny the right of cross-examination. If this man Parmelee is not to be trusted. a man who is now an employee of the public institutions, you gentlemen who are examining into the public institutions should know the facts. If, on the other hand, Dr. Cogswell is making a statement regarding Parmelee which ought to be trusted, you snould give me an opportunity to find it out by compelling him to answer the question which I put.

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Ald. BARRY. Mr. Chairman, I shall certainly vote that Dr. Cogswell answer that question in regard to Mr. Parmalee. I have a great desire to know if there was any influence used whereby that letter was written by Father McAvoy, and for that reason I shall vote that he answer the question.

Mr. CURTIS. Mr. Chairman, just one word, please. You remember, to be fair with Dr. Cogswell, that the answer he gave was that the reason for the prejudice was something that occurred privately between him and Parmelee-nothing whatever to do with anything that has arisen in this investigation or with the institution. Now, I can conceive how Dr. Cogswell could refuse to answer that question anyway, and I think any fair-minded gentleman here would say the same thing. If he has had some private dealings in no way connected with the institution -and that is what I understood to be the case - I don't see why they should be brought in here, and I think it is proper that they should not if they are of a private nature.

Ald. LOMASNEY.-Then the proper thing to do would be to strike out his allusion to the prejudice. That would be the proper thing to do.

Mr. CURTIS. — I trust that the Alderman will allow me to go on without interruption. This committee has sat here for two hours to-night and has heard about five speeches in criticism of its allowing the witness' testimony to be admitted, and I don't know but what this sort of thing is going on as long as Dr. Cogswell is on the stand. The committee did admit it, it is in, and what is the use of taking up time further by saying it ought not to be allowed in. It is in, and I do not see why the committee want to listen to these speeches in regard to it now. But it is, of course, apparent that it struck hard, because when you hit a man hard he talks back, and this whole evening has been taken up by the talking back of these people against the witness. He certainly has hurt them badly, from the way they cry and protest, and Mr. Brandeis admits that he has answered nothing but the testimony given here against him. That is all he has done. Mr. Brandeis is an intelligent lawyer of large practice and knows how to examine witnesses, and why does he not take up the matter seriatim and go at the witness in a proper way, the same as we have done in regard to the Board of Visitors? There is no reason for asking hypothetical questions whether this man is to be believed or that man is to be believed. How does he know, when he doesn't know what they say? It means simply a waste of time.

Mr. BRANDeis. You ought to conduct the cross-examination.

Mr. CURTIS. I think if I did I would get more out of him than you have, and in half an hour, too.

Mr. BRANDEIS. — I have no doubt of it, with your knowledge of the

man.

Mr. CURTIS. Well, I think I could get something out of a witness by proper cross-examination without resorting to anything of this

kind.

Ald. DEVER. Mr. Chairman, it seems to me the counsel should go on; otherwise it will take us all night, and I would like to get away. I would like to record my vote on the pending question before I go. The CHAIRMAN. The question comes on Alderman Lomasney's

motion.

Ald. FOTTLER. - Mr. Chairman, before that motion is put I would like to ask Dr. Cogswell a question. I will ask Dr. Cogswell if the feeling which existed between himself and Mr. Parmelee prejudice, if he chooses to call it that has anything to do with this investigation of the public institutions?

The WITNESS. Not in the slightest.

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Ald. FOTTLER. Then I move that he be allowed not to answer that question. If it does not concern an investigation we are taking part in I do not see how it can be brought in in any manner.

Ald. LOMASNEY. - Then, following up the words of Alderman Fottler, if it does not affect the public institutions investigation why should the superintendent say that it tended to prejudice his mind so that he would inform the clergyman falsely? If it didn't affect the public institutions, if it had no weight, and was a private matter, why should he give the impression here that it was a public matter and of such a nature as to cause a clergyman to write such a letter?

Ald. FOTTLER. - Mr. Chairman, I cannot see that it was brought in in that light at all.

Mr. RILEY. Pardon me just two or three words. I rather hesitate to take part in the debate at all, but I think this ought to be said. By the way, I may begin by answering the suggestion of Brother Curtis. He says that it is only when a man is hit hard that he talks back. He will pardon me if I remind him of the truth that sometimes a candidate is hit so hard that he never talks back. (Laughter.)

Mr. CURTIS.

Riley.

That is hardly like your usual fairness, Brother

Mr. RILEY. Now, Dr. Cogswell refuses to answer a question which is plain and simple and which no honest man, it seems to me, should refuse to answer. He has two or three times previously intimated that he would not answer certain questions. He has by his manner and speech undertaken to direct the cross-examination.

He should be

taught that he cannot do it. Of course, you have no power to compel him or any witness to answer a question if he become stuborn and refuses to do so; but you have this power and it is the only way to reach him or any stubborn witness here — if he refuses to answer any question it is in the power of the committee to throw out his entire testimony and let him go about his business. That is the way to treat such a witness.

The CHAIRMAN. The question comes on Alderman Lomasney's motion, which the clerk will read.

Clerk BRAWLEY.

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That Dr. Cogswell be directed to answer the question why Parmelee was prejudiced."

The question was put on the adoption of the motion, with the following result:

Yeas. Ald Barry, Dever, Lomasney -3.
Nays Ald. Bryant, Fottler, Hallstram

3.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee has voted that the witness may not answer the question.

Mr. BRANDEIS. How is that?

Mr. CURTIS. If a member makes a motion and the vote stands tied, of course the motion is lost.

Ald. LOMASNEY. I ask that the vote be announced so that we may know what it is. I have not heard the Chair announce the result of the vote.

The CHAIRMAN.

The vote stands three that Dr. Cogswell shall answer it and three that he shall not. Therefore the motion is lost. The committee will now take a recess until 8 o'clock.

The recess was taken at 6.45 o'clock P.M.

EVENING SESSION.

The hearing was resumed at 8 o'clock P.M., Chairman HALLSTRAM presiding.

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Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS) Dr. Cogswell, what was Father McAvoy's connection with Long Island?

A. He comes down there once a fortnight and holds Mass, and he comes down every alternate week and hears confessions and tends to the sick in the hospital.

Q.

Well, Father McAvoy had had occasion, then, from time to time, to familiarize himself with conditions at Long Island, didn't he?

A. Well, he hadn't had very long at the time that he wrote this letter.

Q. How long had he had?

A. Well, he had been there a few weeks- perhaps a month or two or three months.

Q. When did Father McAvoy first come professionally to Long

Island ?

A. I do not know.

Q. How long after your coming there did he first come to Long Island?

A. Some little time. I don't know exactly how long. Father Foran was there when I first went there, I think, unless I am mistaken. I may be mistaken.

Q. Well, Father McAvoy didn't have any grudge against you, did he?

A. Not that I know of.

Q. You don't know of any reason why he should be prejudiced against you, do you?

A. No.

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Q. And a man who can judge fairly well whether men are telling him the truth or are not?

A. I don't know as to that.

Q. Well, do you have any doubt about it?

A.

Well, if he believed what Mr. Parmelee said without any investigation I think that his judgment in that case was poor.

Q. And you think his judgment was poor because he believed something bad against you?

4. He didn't believe anything bad against me.

Q. Didn't he?

A.

Not to my knowledge.

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He believed that you, in spite of repeated remonstrance, would not do anything to remove Smith, who was a drunkard, didn't he? Well, but there weren't repeated remonstrances.

A.

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Oh, no.

Q. Well, you said in answer to my statements somewhat earlier that the inmates were not universal or unanimous in condemnation of you. Is that the fact?

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Q. Well, you know of a certain investigation, don't you, down there, that was undertaken by the Aldermen in person?

A. Yes, from hearsay.

Q. Well, you have read the report of it, haven't you?

A.

Q.

I think I have.

Yes.

A. I won't say, though, that I have, but my impression is that I have.

Q. I want to ask you if you don't remember this portion of that investigation? This is a question addressed by Alderman Barry to Mr. Doran

Now, Mr. Doran, you have made a statement that you have seen this gentleman here, Mr. Smith, in company with Dr. Cogswell, drunk - that is, Smith being drunk. How often within six months have you seen him drunk in the company of Dr. Cogswell?

A.

Q.

I could not stay, but I recollect one instance well.

How many times do you recall his having been drunk when he has not been with Dr. Cogswell?

A. Twenty times.

Ald. BARRY. —I will ask the other gentlemen here in the room - is this man telling the truth?

CHORUS OF INMATES. Yes, sir; he is.

Ald. BARRY. Another question

say he is telling a lie?

CHORUS OF INMATES. No, sir.

is there any man in this room who will

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ONE OF THE INMATES.

I will say I never saw the man drunk — I don't

know whether he is telling the truth or not.

Now, you know of that you remember now, don't you, the hearing? I remember the hearing, but I wasn't there.

A.

Q.

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Q.

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Do you remember reading the report of the testimony?

I remember reading that report; yes.

And you remember that a large number of inmates were present?

4. No, I told you I was not there.

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You remember hearing of it at the time?

Yes, sir, - but there was not a large number of inmates there. as I was told.

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And there was not one man that would deny that statement?

A. I don't suppose so, with the gang that got in there, unless I am misinformed.

Q.

Now, who among the inmates down there are there that you would trust that is, for a favorable opinion of you?

4. I don't know didn't ask them.

Q. There isn't any one, is there?

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Q. Name them - some one on whose testimony you could rely?
I wouldn't say I would rely on anybody's testimony.

A.

Q. There isn't any one down there that you think would testify favorably to you, is there?

A. Yes, sir; I think there are a great many.

Q. Name one?

A. Well, I think

Q.

us one.

You may be able to produce this particular one, if you will give

Mr. REED - Produce all you want us to, I guess.

The Witness - Well, I think a man by the name of Winslow down there will testify.

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A. Daniel McDonald, John S. Robertson, George F. Phillips, P. O. Cullen.

Mr. CURTIs. Do you want the names of some of the women, Mr. Brandeis?

The WITNESS. Tim Cadigan.

Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) Well, now, are these men whose names you have given us among the old or among the young men down there? A. Most of them old men, one or two young men.

Q. That is, the old men you deem to be favorable to you, do you? A. Well, it depends entirely on what you consider favorable.

Q. Well, do you consider Frank Palmer responsible and trustworthy?

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