tion in the institution proper the condition in that which should be a workhouse? The condition is absolute idleness and demoralization."

And then it goes on. That is the beginning of what you referred to as what does not concern you, isn't it?

A. Yes, sir; I presume so.

Q. And all the references in there to labor, to compulsory labor and to classification of the inmates, is that which you say does not concern you, is it?

4. It is something over which I have no control.

Q. Well, you didn't answer it because, as you state, it didn't concern you?

A. It wasn't for me to answer; no, sir.

Q.

As you understood it?

As I understood it.

A.

Q. Now, you know, do you not, Dr. Cogswell, that in the opening I stated that those were the important evils, and that all other things referred to by me were but incident to and the outgrowth of those great evils of lack of classification and lack of compulsory labor, do you not? That is my impression.

A.

Q. Yes; and that was reiterated by me, wasn't it, a number of times that the important thing you came here to complain of was an absence of system, an absence of intelligent treatment of the question? Isn't that a fact?

A. I think that is what you stated.

Q. And the lack of intelligence and the lack of system was evidenced by an absence of classification, and particularly under that, an absence of compulsory labor for those who were able to work. That was the statement, wasn't it, in substance?

A.

I think it was ; yes.

Q. Now, before you went to the island what experience had you had in dealing with paupers ?

4. I used to go over there occasionally some years before to relieve the physician in charge.

A.

Q.

That is, your connection with them was purely as a physician?
As a physician; yes.

And had you made any study of the pauper question?

A. I had for about a year.

Q.

And in the study of the pauper question what do you mean that you had considered?

A. Well, I had considered the pauper laws, the conditions governing the paupers, and the extent to which pauperism was growing, and I had thought over what I should do if I could, and things in connection with that matter.

2. Well, you had read, I suppose, books, reports, etc., on the subject, which had been issued from other institutions - - matters written on the subject?

A. Yes, sir, I had.

Q. And you had come to the conclusion that classification and compulsory labor were among the important, the most important things in dealing with the subject of pauperism and pauper institutions ?

A. Well, it seemed to me that compulsory labor for those who were able to labor would do away with a great many of the evils of pauperism in our institutions.

Q. Yes.

A. That is what seemed to me, and in regard to the making of pauperism — for those who, as you might say, hadn't any business to be paupers, to make it as objectionable as possible for them.

Q. That is, show them that they couldn't escape work by becoming paupers ?

A. By becoming paupers.

Q. Yes, and you were convinced also from your study of the subject that in order to practically and properly deal with it it was necessary to investigate the specific cases and to determine to a certain extent the causes of the pauperism and the ability and the inclinations of the individual, had you not?

4. Well, my idea was that each individual should be treated according to his own case.

Q. Yes, and in order to do that you would have to know his case I mean you would have to investigate each man separately, practically, before you could know how to treat him?

4. Yes, sir.

Q. Well, in order to do that you would have to know something of his past, wouldn't you?

A.

Yes, sir.

Q. Well, now, did you establish records which showed that?

4. Well, I undertook something of the kind myself at first when I went there and continued it for some time, but those are some of my own private memorandums. They weren't any official records, because I didn't have any facilities for doing anything of the kind that I could depend upon. I have for my own knowledge and satisfaction thought

I would see what I would find out about the individuals down there, as I found them, and so I questioned them to find out what they had been doing in their past life and what brought them to the poor-house, according to their own judgment.

Q. Well, did you undertake to verify that by inquiries outside from other institutions, charitable institutions in Boston?

A. No, sir; I did not.

Q. It would have been of great value, wouldn't it, in order to carry out your idea of individual treatment, to ascertain from outside sources the history of the individual patient to his connection with other institutions ?

4. Well, as far as I remember now, nineteen out of every twenty told practically the same story — that they had earned money at one time and squandered it through drink, and sometimes brought on by misfortune, and that had brought them down there, and about sixty per cent. of them had been to Deer Island.

Q. Yes. Well, then, your investigation at that time convinced you that among the inmates of the institution there were some who were or had been criminals and there were some there who were there through misfortune and who were deserving in their condition, hadn't it ?

1. Yes, sir.

Q. And you were convinced also that according to the life which they had led they deserved and should receive different treatment, weren't you?

1. Well, only oases that had got to be old men, that is all. After a man gets to be an old man I think he deserves good, kind treatment from the city up to a certain extent, even if he has been a little wayward in his early youth. But taking, as far as I could judge the moral character of the inmates, the only difference between them was that the young men are able and the old men were willing, a large majority of them. There are a good many nice men down there for all that.

Q. Now, in the course of your investigation of the subject of panperism, you had occasion to read the visitors' report of June 30, 1893, didn't you?

A. Yes, sir; I did.

Q. And did you read it before you became superintendent at Long Island?

A. I did and I read it after I got there.

Q. And you read it again after you got there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And perhaps have referred frequently to it since? Well, the first recommendation which they made in that report was that a record be kept stating as far as possible the facts known in regard to the character and history of each inmate, with a view to classification. Now, your study of the object convinced you that that was a wise recommendation, did it not?

A. I think it was.

Q. And you did undertake on your own account to keep such a record?

Q. Yes, sir; I did.

A. Intended to. The second reccommendation they made was that the able bodied be made to work. That, I understand you have already said that you indorse?

A. Thoroughly.

Q. The third was that free passes be abolished except in special Now, what do you say to that recommendation?

cases.

A. Well, from my experience down there and the present interpretation of the laws I do not agree with them.

Q. What do you mean?

4. I think we might just as well issue passes as to have them come up on a discharge and come back in a day or two.

().

Now, supposing on the other hand, that the other interpretation of the law were adopted that you had a right to compel them to work, and that they must abide by the regulations of the institution, would you then be in favor of abolishing free passes except in special cases ? A. I certainly should.

Q. And why would you be opposed to that?

A. I wasn't opposed to it. I think from my experience with them down there that they use the passes to come up town and get under the influence of liquor, and get battered and bruised, and then come down. to recuperate.

Q. That is just what the visitors said was the reason why they opposed the granting of passes, wasn't it?

A. I think it was. I am not quite certain.

Q

Then you fully agree with the visitors, assuming also their interpretation of the law that you could compel work?

A. Yes, if

Q. Yes, I say, assuming their interpretation?

A. If the laws were such that we could keep them down there, and compel them to work, I should be greatly in favor of keeping them there.

Q. Now, the fourth recommendation that they made was that complete separation of the sexes be secured. You are in favor of that, I suppose?

A. Certainly. I think that as far as we have been able to do it that has been done.

Q. Well, and their recommendation fully meets with your approval?

A. Why, certainly. I never heard anybody that would recommend

Now, the fifth recommendation was that printed rules be hung up in the institution. That you believe to be a wise regulation? A. I do. That is a very good recommendation, but I don't think it is absolutely necessary;

Q.

Well, you would approve of it as a recommendation?

A. Yes, I would.

Q. Their next was that stores be given out only by paid officials. You have adopted that course yourself, and I assume, therefore, that you approve of that recommendation.

A. Well, that was done when I went there.

Q.

They had already done it in pursuance of this recommendation ? A. Yes, sir; I believe so.

Q. And you approve of that?

A. I do.

Q. Then the seventh recommendation was that more personal neatness be enforced. Of course the remark refers to what you may not know about what occurred before, but you believe in enforcing personal neatness?

A. I believe in making them be as neat and clean as you can, and there is another point. If you had some means of disciplining them you could make them keep themselves clean.

Q. And the eighth recommendation was that tobacco, if given at all, should be given as a privilege. You agree to that?

Q. Well, yes; I think that tobacco should be given as a privilege and not as a right.

Q. Yes. Then in those eight recommendations, assuming the law as the Commissioners do, you fully agree with them in every one — I mean the visitors?

Q. Well, now, doctor, when you assumed this position, what instructions did the Commissioners give you in regard to the conduct of the institution ?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Was the subject of classification discussed by you with the Commissioners ?

A. My impression - I couldn't tell you when these conversations, Mr. Brandeis, took place, but we have talked over a great many times the subject of classification and also the subject of compulsory labor.

Q. Yes, sir. Now, how long ago did you first discuss with them the subject of classification and compulsory labor?

A. Oh, last year sometime was the first time. I should think like enough it was, might have been before I went down there at all.

Q. That is, you discussed it first early, did you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Yes, and when that discussion took place was any reference made to the recommendation of the visitors?

A. I couldn't say as to that, for I don't remember.

Q. Was any reference made to the fact that Mrs. Lincoln had urged it back as far as 1889, 1890, or 1891?

A. No, I am very sure there was not. I don't think Mrs. Lincoln's name ever appeared in the conversation.

Q. Well, did the Commissioners agree with you that classification would be desirable?

A. To a certain extent; yes, sir.

Q. Well, to what extent did they agree?

A.

Well, separating the able-bodied and those that were able to work from those that weren't able to work.

Q. Well, did the Commissioners agree with you as to the desirability of keeping a record of the individuals, and ascertaining facts with a view to classification ?

A. We never had any conversation on that subject at all.

Q. You stated a little while ago that you didn't keep up your records or complete your records in respect because you had no facilities for doing it. Did you ever suggest of providing such facilities gest to the Commissioners the desirability

4. I don't think I stated anything of that kind, Mr. Brandeis. I said that I didn't communicate with any other institutions.

Q. Yes.

A. But I gave up the keeping of records because I was taken sick.

Q.

And when was that?

4.

That was about the first of last January.

Q. Well, had you kept records continuously up to the first of January?

4. No, sir. The way I did was to take the cases that I thought were good cases and look them up. I didn't do it as a routine practice.

Q. That is, you didn't make a classification and attempt to investigate and keep a record of each case, but only of certain cases ?

A. Only of certain cases, and those were picked out.

Q. At random?

Q. Did you ever communicate with the Commissioners in regard to the advisability of following out the first recommendation of the Board of Visitors, that a record be kept stating as far as possible the facts known in regard to the character and history of each inmate with a view to classification?

Q. Was anything of the sort ever suggested by them?

A. I think after that suggestion was made by the Board of Visitors that they have kept little fuller records down there, but whether that is so or not I wouldn't want to say. Whether that was done before or after this report I don't know. We have a new record book down there which goes back sometime before I went there - how long I don't know. I never have looked at the exact date, which is considerably fuller than the old record book. It has nothing to do with a man's character — more with his social standing.

Q. But the matter has never been discussed in any way between you and the Commission?

A. I only know that I started in that line. When I went there I did start as a regular routine to find out whether or not the inmates had ever been in any institution or not before, which was something new, and if they had been in any institution whereabouts, what other institutions they had been in, and what for. That is a regular record since I

have been there.

Q. Well, you say this subject of keeping the record with a view to classification was never discussed or referred to between you and the Commissioners, so far as you can remember?

4. Not as far as I can remember.

Q. And you are quite sure that they never gave you any directions or suggestions in that respect?

d. I am.

Q. Well, now, the second recommendation

that the able-bodied

be made to work. You say that subject of work was a matter that was discussed between you and the Commissioners ?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And the first time you think was early after your coming there? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Well, now, what directions did the Commissioners give you in that respect?

A. Well, to make them work.

Q. Well, did you suggest to them any punishment for refusing or any method of enforcing your directions that they should work?

A. Well, as I understood it from them, the Corporation Counsel had given an opinion that we couldn't make them work.

Q. When did they tell you that?