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A. I cannot give you that without looking at the record. The largest household that we had that I remember was seventy-eight, nurses, mothers, and children.

Q. And this was a hospital for sick children, was it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And what were the diseases of the children?

A. Mostly, of course, the diarrhœal diseases of the summer, but we had children with one or two cases of meningitis, one or two of tuberculosis.

Q. Well, was it a hospital particularly for the treatment of diseases, or was it more for a convalescent hospital?

A. Oh, very distinctly for the sick. The children were selected from the sickest in the city and were kept there until they got well or


Q. (By Ald. LOMASNEY.) I would like to ask a question. You wouldn't expect, doctor, to have the children and the attendants at that hospital fed on the same kind of bread that the prisoners at Deer Island had, would you?

A. I don't know whether this bread was the same or not. The bread was sent to us.

Q. No, all you know was, that the bread you got was suitable and was good?

A. That is all I know about it.

Q. Well, the bread that was furnished to the paupers at Long Island or Rainsford Island or the prisoners at Deer Island you don't know anything about?

A. I don't know anything about it, sir.

Q. Now, how was the hospital supported?


By contributions from the public.

Q. Have you ever made a report?

A. Not in print.

Q. Well, did you submit a report in the papers?

A. Only the totals. There was a report to each subscriber.

Q. Well, is there any report or document showing the good work you have done, in either printed or written form?

A. I believe Mr. Curtis has a copy, yes, sir.

Q. He has ?

Mr. REED. I have a copy, the copy you sent me.

The WITNESS. Yes, sir. It is a copy like that which I have sent to each subscriber with a blue print of the hospital.

Q. (By the CHAIRMAN.) Doctor, one more question I meant to have asked you, and that is why the children were sent away on September 18 ?

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Q. What?


A. Because the weather was getting cold and the funds were getting low and all experience has shown that a hospital of this kind rather loses its usefulness about the middle of September.

Q. Well, in your opinion would that hospital have been a fit and proper place for those children during the winter months? A. Not for that sort of a child; no, sir.

Not for a child sick with that sort of disease; no, sir.

Q. Well, do you think it would have been for any sort of disease?

A. For a certain class of cases, yes; I should think it would be a very good place for them.


Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) Doctor, who were these children who went to the hospital?

A. Who were they?
Q. Yes.

A. Well, some of them were patients of mine at the Massachusetts Hospital. They were collected from all over the city and all over the suburbs. I can hardly tell you.

Q. Were they what is called paupers?

A. They were anywhere from very poor to paupers.

Q. Were their parents in the asylum in any way?

A. Not that I know of.

Q. This was really a private charity undertaken by you and your friends and associates?

A. Practically my own work.

Q. Practically your own, with Dr. Page?

A. Well, he was my house officer. He had nothing to do with getting it up or the management.

Q. And it stood just as the numerous philanthropic movements of the city stand ―as a private institution?

A. Yes.

Q. Did Dr. Jenks it was he who made the suggestion to you, was it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did Dr. Jenks suggest to you that there were any legal doubts as to his right to put the city's property at your disposal and go to the expense of fitting it up in any way?

A. I heard no such doubts expressed.

Q. He never expressed any donbt at all as to the power or right to do that in any way, did he?

A. It never entered my head to question it.

Q. And the fitting of it up was a matter that was done with the greatest possible expedition, wasn't it?

A. Yes, like an emergency case.

Q. And he didn't express any difficulty in complying quickly with the purpose of fitting it up?

4. No.

Q. Well, now, doctor, you had there about how many children, how many children on an average?

A. On an average a day?
Q. Yes.

A. Well, I answered that question a moment ago that I cannot tell you exactly.

Q. I know, but you have an impression of about the average?

A. I know, mothers and children together, that we averaged anywhere from fifty to sixty.

Q. And there was a mother to each child?

A. Not always.

Q. In most instances?


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Most instances, yes, sir.

Q. So you would say that there were about thirty children?

A. From thirty to thirty-five, yes.

Q. And in addition to those there were perhaps twenty to thirty


A. Yes, the numbers varied very much from day to day.

Q. Now, in addition to those, how many of the sisters of St. Margaret were there?

A. Always two and sometimes three.

Q. What was the function of the sisters of St. Margaret?

A. One was general manager, looking after the general household purchase of supplies and securing help, and another had nothing whatever to do but to prepare the children's food, and another would come down to help.

Q. And then were these sisters of St. Margaret experienced in connection with the sick?

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As nurses?

A. I don't know whether they would be called trained nurses. They have had great experience, however. I don't know whether they have taken diplomas or not.

Q. Great experience in treating the sick?

A. Yes.

Q. And in addition to those three sisters of St. Margaret there were a number of what is strictly termed trained nurses?



Q. How many of those?


On the average three.

Q. And by trained nurses you mean nurses who have had regular courses of instruction ?

A. Yes.

Q. And graduated. Where did these graduate?


I don't know.

Q. At sonie of the hospitals here?

A. I think one or two of them were English. I don't know that they graduated here, but they were what is spoken of as trained nurses.

Q. So that you had three sisters of St. Margaret and three nurses to take charge, in addition to the mothers, whatever they might do or whatever you might let them do, to take care of thirty or thirty-five


A. Yes, whatever we might make them do. It wasn't what we would let them do.

Q. Did you ever go to Rainsford before until you happened to go down this time ?


Never was on the island.

Had you ever been on Long Island up to that time? A. Yes.





Q. When?

A. Shouldn't like to say. I think it was about two years ago I went down. I was interested in the new plans of the new hospital and I think it was about two years ago last summer.

Q. You went down with Mr. Wheelwright?


4. No; I went down through conversation with him. I have forgotten exactly with whom I did go.

Q. You haven't been there at any time during Dr. Cogswell's administration up to this visit you made this summer?

No, sir.

And that visit was when ?

That I made this summer?

Q. Yes; the other was two years ago, I understand. That was while

Dr. Harkins was there and before they had the new hospital?

A. Yes.

Q. While they were planning the new hospital ?

A. Yes.

2. But this new hospital you never saw until this summer,


you were interested in your Children's Hospital?


Yes, sir.

Q. And that was when?

A. That was during August. I can't say exactly when.

Q. Sometime during August?

A. Sometime during August.


Q. Then you know nothing whatever of the condition of things at Long Island at the time when this investigation began, or at the time the Board of Visitors made their report that has been talked of?

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A. No.

Q. You didn't mean in making that remark about this building that you occupied for the children for a month or so you didn't mean to indicate that you thought the building at Long Island was an unnecessary luxury, did you?

4. No, I don't see how what I said could be twisted in that way.

Q. Well, this building that you occupied, you didn't mean to indicate that that would have been sufficient to take care of the paupers who were in the Long Island Hospital ?

4. I didn't certainly mean to indicate anything of the kind.

Q. Well, what did you mean when you said something about improvements of the building that ought to be made?

A. Well, I meant that except for an emergency, if this building were to be used again or could be set aside for such a purpose, that with comparatively slight changes it might be a very good building, as good a building as I could find.

Q. For how many patients?

A. For about as many as we had last summer.

Q. That is, including the household, as you call it, of perhaps seventy to seventy-eight?

A. Yes. It is only fair to say that for that bousehold we had some of the polling booths there which we used, one of them for a playroom, one for a washroom, and one for night nurses to sleep in outside of the building.

Q. That is, outside of the building you had annexes, as it were, to help you out, because it was crowded?

A. Yes.


Q. (By Mr. REED.) Of the 129 patients that you had entered there, doctor, I believe there were seven deaths?

A. Yes.

Q. Were many of the cases when received very ill, many of the children very ill?


A. there?

A. A large number of them were very ill. They were selected from the sickest children we could find in the city.

Q. Then all the children which you had there were very sick children?

A. Well, not all of them, but the majority of them.
Q. Acute diseases?



And you considered the rate of mortality very low?

I should consider it very low for such a connection as we had


Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) Dr. Gogswell, this clerk Hinds, who kept the ten sets of books and got the ten dollars a month, who had been at work three years doing that work, how long had he been on the island? A. I don't know.

Q. Well, don't your records show how long he had been on the island? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Well, cannot you turn to them and tell us?

4. I haven't got those records.

Q. Haven't got those records here?

A. No. sir.

Q. Well, you know something about this clerk Hinds, don't you about his last experience?

A. Only what I have heard that is all.

Q. Yes. You know something about him, don't you?
A. Yes, sir.


Well, what do you know?


Well, what do you want to know.

Q. Well, what was he before he was clerk?

A. I think he was a book-keeper. He was a book-keeper at one time and a travelling salesman at another.

Q. In the city?


Yes, sir.

Q. And how did he happen to be down at Long Island?

4. He was sent, as I understand it, from the City Hospital to the

hospital at Long Island, suffering from acute nephritis.

Q. What is that?

4. Perhaps what you know as Bright's disease.

Q. And that was three years ago, or longer?


As I understand it, he was in the hospital about three months, and then he was put in as





A. Yes, sir.



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How old is he?

To take charge as clerk?

And he is in good health now?

I haven't the slightest idea.

Q. Well, you have some notion ?

A. Well, I should say that he was about 50. He may be ten years older for all I know.

Q. This is the man to whom you pay $10 a month, and entrust the keeping of all the records of Long Island?

A. No, sir.

Q. All except certain hospital records, don't you ?

A. There are the hospital records, the receiving-room records, and the store records.

Q. That is, the hospital and storeroom records are not kept by him? A. No, sir.

Q. Everything else is?

A. The purely institution records, what are called the institution records, are kept by him.

Q. Those and the burial records death and burial records?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And this is the man who deceived Mrs. Moran?

A. It looks that way; but I think he did it through a sort of kindheartedness on his part.

Q. Yes; that is, he told a lie from laudable motives. Well, now I would like to have you show us the record of the burial of Edward Cuddy?

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Q. Well, let me see the record which shows what disposition was made of Edward Cuddy's body. (Witness showed book to counsel.) You are showing us now, doctor, a book called the " Record of Deaths," and at the top of page 5 you have there," No. 8796, Edward Cuddy; age 70; date of death, Nov. 21, 1893, at 6.20 P.M.; disease, senile debility; remarks, sent to the city," That is the whole record?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, Dr. Cogswell, when was that record made?

A. That was made at the time of his death.

Q. You mean that those words were written at the time that Cuddy died?

A. Not in this book, no, sir; those words, part of them were written at the time of his death and part afterwards.

Q. You say those words in that book were not all written at the time of his death?

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