Q. I say that was the one book you had of William O'Brien's death, and where he appears to have been buried eight days before he died and to have been buried in the same grave with John McManus.

Mr. PROCTOR

- You are raising the time in your joke. It was six days the last time.

Mr. BRANDEIS. You are right, sir. This is one of the few instances, Brother Proctor, when you are correct.

Q. Now, let us pass on to the next person who died here. After December 3, who was the next man that died?

A. Louis G. Herrick.

Q. Louis G. Herrick, yes. Well, now, what happened to him after his death?

A. He was buried.

Q. He was buried afterwards pears to have happened to him? he?

A. Seems to have been; yes, sir.

not before. Well, now, what apHe seems to have been buried, does

Q. That is in your new record book. Now, what date was he buried that is in your record book now? What date was he buried ?

Q. December 7. Well, now, this 'record book, this grocer's pass book burial book which you have here, doesn't contain any record of his burial, does it?

A. Doesn't seem to there, no.

Q. No, it doesn't. There isn't any person buried between November 23 and January 23, 'according to this book, except Mary L. Robinson. Isn't that a fact?

A. No, sir.

Q. Who were according to that book?

4. Look at it and you will find it there.

Q. Who?

A.

you.

Dr. Parker is there, and he could probably have pointed it out to

Q. Where?

A.

ཅ

A.

At the top of the page.

Is that December 13 or 18?

I can't read the writing

December 18, I guess.

Q. You say he was buried December 18.

A. Yes.

Q. Well, this burial book isn't kept in order at all, is it?

A. Well, probably when he copied that over he might not have copied it exactly from the record — might have taken a different one. Q. Well, but where did he copy it from at all? It doesn't appear here anywhere, does it, at all?

4. Might have had another book, for all I know.

Q. Yes. Well, who is the next man who died?

A. The next man was a woman Hannah Downey, age 73, died of senile diarrhoea, and was taken.

Q. Her body was taken?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who was the next one?

A. Mary L. Robinson.

Q. What date did she die ?

Q.

Well, now, after that who is the next after December 18? A. Well, Mary Shea died December 12, of carcinoma, and her body was taken; James Murray died December 14, of phthisis, sent to the city for anatomical purposes; John Hurley died the 16th, of old age, his body was taken.

Q. Of December?

A. Yes; Georgianna Mahoney died the 17th, of phthisis, and her body was taken; Charles E. Swett died the 18th, senile debility, and his body was taken; Mary O'Brien died the 22d, of apoplexy, and her body was taken; Ann Cooney died on the 25th.

Q. Of December?

4. Of December, and was not buried until January 23.

Q. She wasn't buried until January 23?

A. No, sir.

Q. And what was the next?

A. The next was Hannah Hickey, who died on the 15th, of paresis, and was buried January 23.

Q. Now, doctor, we had a few moments ago an instance of John McManus and William O'Brien being buried in one grave, No. 27? 4. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that the only instance of people being buried in one grave? A. No. William O'Brien was an infant about six months of age, and John McManus was a man.

Q. Well, they are still persons, aren't they, both of them?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Those were cases of two persons being buried in one grave?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, was that the only instance of two being buried in one grave, or was that a common practice down there with you?

A. It was a practice we used to bury infants in the graves with adults.

Q. With their parents or with somebody else?

4. Well, I am happy to say that we never have had occasion to bury the parent and child at the same time.

Q. That is, it was your practice, then, to put in an infant as a sort of makeup in a grave that happened to be prepared that day for some adult.

Q. I wasn't? Well, what do you mean?

4. Well, when we buried an adult, if we had a child at that time we buried the child with the adult.

Q. Yes; and why did you do that?

4. Why did we do it?

Q. Yes; economy of graves?

A. Well, you might call it economy of graves.

Q. Well, why did you do it?

4. Economy of space.

Q. Well, is there any difficulty in finding space enough to bury the people down at Long Island ?

A.

4. Hasn't been up to the present?

Q. Well, why did you do it?

4. Well, just as you said, because we didn't want to use up any

more ground than we were absolutely obliged to.

Q. Well, how much ground would it take for an extra grave?

A. If we put a child in a grave it would take just as much as it would to bury an adult.

Q.

A.

Well, how much is that?

Six feet six, two and one-half, five feet deep.

Q. And how large is Long Island?

A. I don't really know somewhere around the city owns about 168 acres.

Q. And you haven't room down at Long Island to give burial, decent burial, to a child?

A. I consider that decent burial.

Q. Is that something that you suggest?

A. That is what is done in the best cemeteries in this state. There are more graves in the State to-day that have two persons in the grave than there are that have got one, I will venture to say.

Q. You think there are, do you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You recommend that, do you?

A. Certainly I do.

Q. Well, why don't you put two adults in one grave?

A.

Q.

We will when we get around to it?

You propose to do that, do you?

A. Yes, sir.

Why do you confine it to two? Why not take them all and put

all in one grave?

A. Because I don't approve of it, don't think it is right.

Q. Well, where do you draw the line?

4.

A.

I don't believe in burying people by wholesale.

Q. You believe in burying them by twos, but not by wholesale? If they happen to die that way, bury two or three. If they happen to die we bury as many as three in one day.

Q. And also in one grave not only in one day?

A. No, not always in one grave. I think we have got three in one

grave.

Q. Well, now, you had a good deal to say, doctor, about what the burial book showed in regard to Frederick Rallion, didn't you, and you thought or you argued in your opening argument that the burial book in regard to Fred Rallion would prove that Mr. McCaffrey hadn't told the truth, didn't you?

Mr. REED. Have you got a copy of that statement there, doctor? Mr. BRANDEIS. Well, he can remember his argument. He must have learned it almost by heart.

Mr. REED. You didn't think so.

Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) Didn't you say that the date of Rallion's death and burial showed that Mr. McCaffrey couldn't have told the truth ?

Q. And the only record of his burial you had was this book here at that time - I mean the only contemporary record was this grocer's book that you had?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, I ask you whether it isn't true that that book shows that there has been a tampering with and an erasure of the date of Frederick Rallion's death ?

A. No, sir; it does not.

Mr. BRANDEIS. - Gentlemen, I will ask you each to look at this for yourselves. There is the entry about Frederick Rallion down at the bottom.

Mr. PROCTOR. — Dr. Parker appears to know a good deal about that book.

Mr. BRANDEIS. Well, he does know a good deal about it.
Ald. LEE. Send in and get the glass.

Mr. BRANDEIS. - Oh, you don't need a glass, only one eye.

Ald. WITT. — That one ?

Mr. BRANDEIS. — No, down at the bottom there. This witness says that date doesn't appear to have been changed. You can examine it for yourselves. (To Áld. FOTTLER). You do not need to put it up to your

eyes.

Ald. FOTTLER. isn't very good. Mr. BRANDEIS. Ald. FOTTLER. Mr. BRANDEIS. Ald. LEE.

I can tell a little better, you know. My eyesight

There is the date.

-It isn't scratched.

It isn't? I guess it is scratched. There is the date. What is it supposed to be the 13 or 3d?

Mr. BRANDeis.

13th.

It appears now in its altered condition, I think, the

The WITNESS, Well, what was it before it was altered?
Mr. BRANDeis.

That is what I don't think it is important to know. But it is sufficient to know that it is altered; that it has been tampered with since that there is put in since.

Ald. WITT. Hasn't that date there been changed, too?

Mr. BRANDEIS. - Oh, yes, there are other things which I will call attention to. I am not through with this yet, only taking one at a time. These are the beautiful records that are kept by the man who gets $10 a month.

Mr. BRANDEIS.

uable services.

Ald. WITT.

Hinds. Clerk Hinds gets $10 a month for his valReduce his salary; he isn't worth it.

The WITNESS. - No, if he couldn't change a record better than that he isn't worth $10 a month.

Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS. Well, now, doctor, you gave us one of the books containing records, so-called records, of burials which were kept by Mr. Coakley. Will you turn to that book again. Mr. PROCTOR. What are his initials -C. W.? Mr. BRANDEIS Charles H.

Q. Will you turn, Dr. Cogswell, to that - Well, now, Dr. Cogswell, I want to ask you some questions. If the witness is testifying, I would like to have it go on record. Now, Dr. Cogswell, if you are ready to go on with the testimony I would like to ask you a few questions. Are you ready now, doctor?

4.

Yes, sir.

Q. Well, you said that this record book which you began of deaths and burials, which you began after the Board of Visitors went down to see you about the 1st of January, that that was copied in part from this other so-called record of burials of 1893, which didn't contain any record of burial. You said it was copied from there, didn't you?

A.

Yes.

Q. Well, what part? -- everything excepting these words, "Sent to the city," which don't appear there?

Q. Well, now, let us see if there is anything else in this book. Turn back to Edward Cuddy, because he is an interesting figure.

A. Instead of taking the new record of death book show the number of the death, which doesn't mean anything, I had the registered number inserted.

Q. Of the inmate?

A. Of the inmate.

Mr. REED. I want to call attention to the fact that Dr. Parker has that book now. In case it In case it is claimed that changes have been made, I

want to see where the book goes.

Mr. BRANDEIS.

Well, the changes had been made before Dr. Parker

There is no evidenee of that, sir.

Mr. BRANDeis.

The WITNESS.

Well, I think all the Aldermen have seen it.

Yes, but Dr. Parker has had access to that book for

the last eight months.

(By Mr. BRANDEIS.) You think he made the change, do you? A. No, I don't.

Q. And that that date, October 13, is not the correct date?

A.

I don't think he made the change at all?

Mr. REED. It doesn't make any difference whether he made the change or not. The matter has simply been referred to in view of your

contention.

(The stenographer repeated the last two questions and answers on previous page.)

Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) That is, the registered number of the inmates was what you said?

A. Yes, sir.

Q.

Now, what else does it show?

A. It shows the time at which the patient died.

Q. Well, where do you get that?

A. From the institution record.

Q. Where is that?

A. Down at Long Island.

Q.

Haven't that here? That is taken from another record? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, what else does it show that doesn't appear on this first record of burials that you kept as a contemporaneous record?

A.

But that isn't a record of burials.

Q. Well, you call it a record of burials call it so by the printed words of the book.

A.

Yes, sir.

Q. I suppose Mr. Curtis would call it so if he were asking questions. about it, wouldn't he?

A.

Q.

A.

Q

A.

No, I don't think he would.

As he did in regard to these diet lists?

I don't think he would.

Now, what else does it show?

Shows whether they were sent to the city for anatomical purposes

or taken by friends, or buried on the island.

Q. Now, this Coakley who kept this book was a proper person to keep the book, wasn't he?

A. He didn't keep the book, he only copied it.

Q. Well, this is the only record you had, wasn't it?

A. No, that isn't the only record we had.

Q.

At that time? What other record did you have?

A. Had the record in the pedigree book and the record in the regis

try and the record in the record book.

Q. But this is the only death record you kept?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And this was kept by Charles H. Coakley, wasn't it?

A. Yes, sir; under the supervision of the physicians.

Q. Yes, under the supervision of the physicians, whatever supervision they gave to it and it was from this in part that you copied into this new record of deaths which was made up after the visitors were down there. Well, now, I wish you would look at these two books and see whether that was the same Edward Cuddy that appears in the two books?

A. Yes, sir; it was.

Q. Now, according to one book he was eighty years of age, and according to the other book he was seventy years of age. That is more remarkable than being buried before you die.