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A. That book there, it was taken from his own statement and this age here was taken from the statement that he made when he came down to the institution, and we considered that this was more accurate than that, so we put down the seventy.

Q. Both of these ages, one seventy and one eighty, are taken from his own statement, aren't they?

A. I presume they were. I don't know about that, you know.

Q. Well, but when were these to statements taken ? When was one taken and when was the other taken?

A. One was taken

I couldn't tell you, I don't know.

Q. Well, how do you know that one was taken at one time and one was taken at another?

A.

Q.

Because this was taken when he came into the institution.
What do you mean by this?

A. This one here, this record.

Q. You mean the one that appears in that book?

A. Yes, sir.

Q.

A.

Well, but that book wasn't made up until long after his death?
No, sir.

Q. Well, how is it that you took that?

A.

We took it from our institution record?

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Q. And when was the other record made?

A. That was made, I suppose. at the time of his death.

Q.

When did he give his age as eighty — at the time he was dying? A. I don't know, sir.

Q. Was that after his death that he gave it?

A. Well, as to that, you know I wasn't present in either case, so I couldn't state.

Q. So you don't know anything at all about why in one case his age appears as eighty and in the other case as seventy?

4. I haven't the slightest idea; no, sir, excepting

Q. You haven't the slightest idea?

Ald. FOTTLER. He explained that once.

Mr. BRANDeis.

He did not explain it. He attempted to by giving

a certain statement which I think was no explanation.

Mr. PROCTOR. — Well, it is pretty hard to satisfy Brother Brandeis. Mr. BRANDEIS. No, I am easily satisfied with the truth.

Q. Now, explain to the Aldermen how it happens that in one book this man appears to be seventy years old and in the other book appears to be eighty years old?

A. This record that appears here

Q. You mean by

here the record made after the visitors were

down there, and three months after his death?

Ald. LEE. — There weren't ten years elapsed, were there, between the making of the records?

Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) Well, how long a time elapsed?

A. I think, Mr. Brandeis, I can explain it so that even you can understand it.

Q. All right.

A.

When a man goes up to 14 Beacon street, he is supposed to give his age. Yes.

Q.

A

Yes, and if his friends are with him they give it. That is taken on the permit which we receive.

Q.

Yes.

4.

A. Over again.

If he goes into the receiving-room he is asked his age Q. Over again?

Q. Yes.

A. Sometimes he gives it the same, sometimes he doesn't.
Q. Yes.

4.

And we take the one that we think is nearest his age. Q. But you seem to have taken both in this instance?

A. They were not taken by the same man, and probably their judgments differed, you know.

Q. How do you know they weren't taken by the same man?

A.

Because one was taken from the hospital and comes from the hospital records, and the other was taken at the institution.

Q. Yes, but you said a few moments ago, when it was first called to your attention, that this entry in this book, Edward Cuddy, age seventy; date of death November 21, 1893; senile debility," was copied from this other book which was kept in Coakley's handwriting?

A. No, sir; excuse me if the stenographer will turn back far enough he will learn that I said that some things were copied from that book and some things from others.

Q. Yes, sir; and you were asked which were copied from this book and you read that.

(The stenographer read the testimony given by the witness shortly after his statement was resumed, in reference to the record of the burial of Edward Cuddy, and going through the witness' statement in regard to the way the record was made up.)

Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) Yes, and the rest comes from the wharf book. Now, I asked you what books that entry came from, and you said a part of it which you read here came from page 22 of the record of burials and the rest of it came from the wharf book. Now, is that correct? Does the wharf book contain a record of the fact that this man was seventy years old?

4. No, sir; and it doesn't contain his registry number, either.

Q. No: then that statement you made is not correct?

A. I think if you will go back far enough you will find that I said that this record here was made up from the record of several books. Q.

Yes.

A. That we try to have this one as correct as possible.

Q. Yes, and I asked you what books it was made up from and you gave as an answer from this book, page 22, and from the wharf book. A. It was also made up from our institution register.

The CHAIRMAN. Dr. Parker will please take his seat in the audience.

Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) Now, Dr. Cogswell, you said that this book which is entitled "Record of Burials," was not a record of burials at all, but was a record of deaths?

A. That is the book that I found when I went there, that had been kept.

Q. Yes, and you kept it in just the same way?

A. Kept it the same way for a while and then had this other one.

Q. What do you mean by the other one?

A.

This one here.

Q That book you didn't get until after the visitors had been down there?

A. No, sir; I did not.

Q. Then, as I understand it. understand it — I would like to be sure that I get the

witness on this

Mr. PROCTOR.

Mr. BRANDEIS.

hardly move.

You won't get him.

Get him? He is snarled up already so that he can

The CHAIRMAN. - Go on.

Mr. PROCTOR.

I beg pardon for interrupting Brother Brandeis. The CHAIRMAN. If there were less of this cross-fire between counsel we would get along better.

Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) Now, Dr. Cogswell, I want to see if I understand you. You say you came down there and found this book which is entitled "Record of Burials," but which you say is record of deaths and which is in Coakley's handwriting on page 22. You say that you found that book in use down there when you got there as a record of deaths, but not of burials, and that you kept this book awhile until after the visitors were down there, and then you started the book which you have there. Is that a fact?

A. I say that was in use when I went down there. I didn't know anything about it.

Q. Now, is the statement which I have made of your testimony correct?

A. As to what?

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A. In so far as it related to whether a body was sent to Rainsford Island or not. We didn't begin to bury on Long Island until some months after I had been there.

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A. In June, I think, it was either June or July. I think it was in June - yes, about the middle of June when we began to bury there. Q. Yes.

A.

And consequently they didn't have any use for a burial book, as I understand the use of that book of course, I didn't start it, and I don't know what it was intended to be as I had nothing to do with it. That is my impression, from my knowledge of what they used to do there. Q.

Yes.

A. That it was not a burial book. It was intended. I think, for a burial book to be used at Rainsford Island, and instead of using it for a burial book at Rainsford Island they used it for the death book at Long Island.

Q. Now, will you look at that book and see whether this book does not show, just as this book, that you started after the visitors were down there does not show what bodies were taken and what bodies were buried, that is, prior to the time when you had charge ?

A. Yes, it does.

Q. Then this defective method of not keeping in that book which is printed as a record of burials, not keeping in it the fact of burials and whether a body was taken or not, or whether it was sent to the city for anatomical purposes — that was something which crept in after you got there?

A. No, sir.

Q. That was a defect that crept in after you took charge at Long Island ?

A. No, sir.

Q. Isn't it a fact that as long as Dr. Harkins was at Long Island

that book was properly kept as a record book of burials as well as deaths?

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Q.

This contains the deaths and burials during what time?

A. It contains the deaths and burials apparently from January 9, 1892, to December 30, 1892, of the men.

Q. Yes. Well, now, doesn't it, as a matter of fact, show whether they were buried and whether they were taken ?

A.

Not all of them; no, sir.

Q. Which one doesn't it show?

4.

William R. Caswell, sixty-three years old, died December 1 doesn't say what happened.

Q. That is the only one?

A. That is the only one there.

Q. How many in all ?

A.

I don't know. I should say about sixty.

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Q. And the handwriting there, the record there, is largely in Dr. Harkins' handwriting?

A. About one-half Dr. Harkins' and the other half Charles II. Coakley's.

Q. A great part of it Dr. Harkins'

different words and diseases,

all interspersed with writing by Dr. Harkins ?

A. About half and half; yes, sir.

Q. Showing that he exercised supervision over the books?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And that makes a very proper record, doesn't it?

4. I don't see how he could keep an accurate record even of that. He can only say there whether the body was sent to Rainsford Island or whether it was taken, unless he has some knowledge that I do not know about.

Q. Whether it was buried or taken?

A. Yes, sir.

A. Well, might not have been buried.

2.

Well, it appears there "buried"

buried and taken.

Q.

4.

Q.

A.

And that record is properly kept, isn't it?
Appears to be on that page.

And appears to be also on preceding pages?

Yes, sir; and that record is in Hinds' handwriting.

Q. Some of it, and some Dr. Harkins'?

A. Twenty in Mr. Hinds' and five in Dr. Harkins'.

Q. And with Dr. Harkins having a supervision over the page it so appears, doesn't it?

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Q. Yes; and then comes the period of time in which you were in charge where there is nothing appears on this book to show whether the body was buried, or taken, or sent to the city for anatomical purposes?

A.

Not in that book; no, sir.

Q. Between June, 1893, and February, 1894.

A. I say, and I said before, that I didn't know they kept that book there on the island.

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A. I supposed it was kept in another book. I knew the record of deaths was kept in another book, and I didn't suppose they kept that in addition.

Q. Then the only book you knew of was this little grocer's pass

book?

A. No. sir. That isn't a death book, a burial book - knew all about that, because I started it myself.

Q. Where is the other death book?

A.

4. It is the institution record, and also kept in the hospital, kept in the hospital register.

Q. Wasn't it, doctor, just after Dr. Parker testified that that book was made up fresh, and Mr. Hinds made a fresh copy of it?

A.

The death book was made up before he testified.

Q. Yes?

A. The death book was.

Q

The death book was made up, I think, before this investigation began.

A. The burial book, I think, was made up

I don't know exactly if you could give me the date of Dr. Parker's testimony I think I could give you a little more accurately when the book was made up.

Q. When did Mr. Hinds begin to keep that death book?

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A. I think right after the 1st of February.

Q. That is, after the visitors were down there?

4. He began to keep it just within a few days after I saw the first death book. I didn't think it was a book that should be kept in the hospital. I thought it should be kept as a part of the institution records.

Q. That was the first time you knew about it, was it?

A. Yes, sir. Dr. Parker brought it to me and showed it to me. I didn't know it was there.

Q. You had been in charge down there at the hospital, superintendent for nearly a year?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And didn't know about this book, didn't know about what records were being kept?

A. Yes, sir; I did.

Q. But you didn't know about this record?

A. No, sir; I didn't.

Q. Well, what other records didn't you know about?

4. I guess this is about the only one.

Q. About the only one?

A. Yes, sir. There haven't any others been discovered since that I didn't know about.

Q. Haven't?

A. No, sir.

Q. When that body of Edward Cuddy's was sent up for anatomical purposes, was any other body sent up also?

A.

Yes, sir.

Q. What others?

A. Two others.

Q. What others?

A.

Q.

A.

Alexander Wallace, and the other one I don't remember.

And where did they go to?

I don't know, sir.

Q. You don't know where they are sent to ?

A. No, sir; I don't.

Q. Are they sent up on orders of the commissioners?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And what orders do the commissioners give under those circumstances?

A. To send the body of whoever it may be to the city.

Q. Do they designate what bodies shall be sent up?

A. Yes, sir; they do. We notify them every time a person dies there. After they have been dead five days, if there don't any one come to claim them we notify them that such and such a person has died and is to be buried at the public expense, that no friends have come to claim them. Then if they see fit to hand them over to any organized medical school they have the power to do so.

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