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Q. That is, you always wait five days after the death before notifying?
d. Yes, sir; I think we do.
Q. Well, what does the « tive days” mean, when you say you always wait five days?
it. Well, as I understand the law, the law says that if at the end of five days no one has come to claim the body of a person, if they haven't requested that they be buried, or no friend has requested for them that they be buried, that on the filing of a bond the commissioners have the right to deliver the body up for the advancement of anatomical science.
2. Yes. Well, now, what day dill this body come up to Boston ?
Q. Could only tell from the freight book — that is all you could tell from?
Yes, sir. Q. Well, don't you remember it appeared in the testimony that this Boston permit was dated the 25th of November that is, only four days after the death of this man?
Datert the 24th ? 2 Dated the 25th that is four days after the 21st, when the man died, according to your record?
d. Well, that would be five days.
Q. No, it wouldn't, would it ? November 21 to November 25 is only four days.
Å. If it was issued on the 25th and he died on the 21st, that would be but four days.
Q. You say that three were sent up?
I think Ilexander Wallace, Vary McCarthy, and Edward Cuddy. Q. Do your recorils show that? Just turn to your records now?
A. I remember that those three bodies went up at the same time. I reniember that three bodies went up at the same time, and I know Alexander Wallace and Edward Cuddy were two, and by looking at the book I see that Mary McCarthy was one. Those three went up together.
Q Well, nowy, doctor, on pages 17 and 21 in the type-written copy of your argument, you speak about the difficulty you have had with the various male nurses you have had down there, how one after another left you, and then you say on page 21, · I have done my best to keep the places filler, but the law has not been passed yet to enable me to go np to town and take a desirable man by the collar ind say, “Here, you come down to Long Island and work at nursing
4. Yes, sir.
V. Well, now, how much do you pay these men whom you get down there to do this important work of nursing ?
4. Two men get $20 a month and one gets $25.
Q. Have you ever tried to see whether by paying more you could get desirable men to go down to Long Island ?
Mr. PROCTOR. — Pardon me if I interrupt. I would like to know if that includes the living or not.
Mr. BRANDEIS. You had better ask when I get through. I prefer that you should not interrupt me. MP. PROCTOR. — All right.
All right. Excuse me for living.
I never have.
Q. You heard the testimony here of Dr. Dudley in regard to the difficulty of getting people to go down to Long Island because the salaries were not sufficient, didn't you?
A. I did
A. I don't carry it in mind now enough to know whether there are any points in it that it would be in my province to answer.
Q. Well, you don't consider Mr. Dudley as having any prejudice against you or the commissioners, do you! 4. I shouldn't think he had, none that I know of.
Q. You remember that he testified that the people who were passed on the lists as being certified properly to go down, on competitive examinations, wouldn't go to Long Island because the salaries were insufficient, doni jou?
A. Some of them, yes, sir; if I remember correctly.
Q. Well, now, on page 8 of your argument, in speaking of the alleged lack of cleanliness down at Long Island, you say, “C'leanliness depends, in an institution, upon discipline; if I can't stop it man from spitting on the floor, from going out and coming in with mud on his shoes, and doing various otlier things, I can't expect to keep to the highest standard of cleanliness." Now, after the corporation counsel - Dr. Babson's opinion declaring that the commissioners hare authority to prescribe rules and regulations concerning the conduct and occupation of the paupers at Long Island, and to enforce those rules and regulations, bave you any doubt as to your ability, if such rules and regulations were enacted, to enforce the cleanliness down there?
A. Well, I don't know anything about his opinion.
Q. Well, it was read before you the other day. Don't you remember it?
Q. Haven't you had any conversation with the comwissioners about it since ?
Q. Well, under that opinion don't you think the commissioners have power to enforce rules and regulations, prescribe rules and regulations which you can enforce, and by means of them ensure that cleanliness which you so much desire ?
A. Wly impression would be that if I were commissioner and a man had given one opinion at one time and another opinion at another time, diametrically opposed, and if I was going to follow out his second opinion, and if it didn't turn out to be correct I should lay myself liable to a suit for false imprisonment and civil damages. I should hesitate some time myself. I would follow his first opinion for a wbile.
Q. You would? 4. Yes, sir.
Q. Isn't it il fact that Mr. Babson was never called upon by the Commissioners to give an opinion before he did this written opinion?
A. I don't know anything about it, sir.
A. No, sir. I don't know that I even knew they asked him this second time until I heard it here. I don't think so.
Q. They never said anything at all to you about it? d. No, sir.
Q. Never mentioned the fact. Didn't you confer with them as to what you were going to state in your argument here as to discipline and the like?
A. Didn't have a second's conversation with them. I only said what I had to say for inyself. The commissioners, I suppose, will speak for themselves.
Q. Well, now, doctor, coming back a moment to that matter of sending up the bodies to the city, you say you remember sending up Mary McCarthy's with the other two?
d. Yes, sir.
A. Because in looking up this testimony here in regard to Cuddy, I looked up the letter and saw that the commissioners called for three persons at the same time.
A. And Alexander Wallace, having figured somewhat prominently here, I remembered him in addition to Edward Cuddy.
Q. Yes. And he died also on that same day, the 21st ?
He died some time before.
Å I wouldn't say exactly as to that (examining records). He died November 14.
Q. Well, now, on page 1,060 of the record of the hearings the following appears as the record in the office of the Board of Health :
Date, Nov. 25, 1893. Name, Alexiinder Willace. Date of death, Nov. 21, 1893.” That is on page 1,060 of the printed records. How do you account for that?
d. I rather think if you looked that up you would find that it referred to Edward Cuddy.
Q. No, but I am reading what is in quotation marks.
Mr. BRANDEIS. In answer to my question, but I suppose the witness can be believed - Charles E. Davis, Jr., of the Board of Health. It is copied from the records. I asked him, “Will you take the next one, 4,402 ?
"1. Well, do you wish me to read it? "Q. Yes; please read it.
" A. (Reading): •Date, November 25, 1893. Name, Alexander Wallace. Date of death, Norember 21, 1893. To Mt. Hope for interment. J. Tinkham, undertaker. Commissioners of Public Institutions, Michael T. Donohoe, Secretary.?" That was receipted for analtomical purposes?
A. That wasn't so.
I was present at the testimony — when he gave the testimony,
Q. Well, that is what appears on the Board of Ilealth's records, isn't it what was read by Mr. Davis at that time!
A. May not have appeared on the Board of Health's records.
lle might have måde å mistake might have read across the line and made a mistake on it.
Q. Well, now, how do you happen to remember that Vary McCarthy Wis sent up for anatomical purposes at the same time?
As I say, when I came to look up this matter I found that in the same letter where they called for Edward Cuddy they had called for two other bodies, and I remember Alexander Wallace as I said, because he had figured here quite prominently. If you remember, when I first testified I did not remember who the third one was, until I looked here in the book and saw it was Mary McCarthy.
Q. Don't you remember something about Mary McCarthy besides what you have testified ?
4. Yes, sir; I do.
4. I don't remember enough to be accurate in my statements, and so I don't think I am called upon to state at this time, but if you will let me come up here at another hearing
Q. Now, I wint your recollection now, doctor, what you remember
then you can give us what additional information you get at the next hearing
A. I remember that there was some trouble about this Vary McCarthy:
Q. What was it!
A. As to which Mary McCarthy it was. There were, if I remember correctly, three Vary VicCarthys, one or two at Rainsford Island and at Long Island. Perhaps Dr. Parker can explain it. He made notes of it at the time.
1. I say perhaps Dr. Parker may have made notes of it at the time, and can give a better explanation of it; more accurate than I can.
Q. Don't you remember what the specific trouble was about sending up this body? 4. No, sir; I do not.
Q. Don't you remember that after this body was sent up that the bouly was claimed, and that you hurriedly notitied then not to send that body for dissection, but to send it back to Long Island, and that it was sent back to Long Island ?
d. Yes, sil'; I do.
I don't remember even now whether the body had been sent or not, but my impression is that it had.
Q. Yes, and that they were sent up before the lapse of the five days?
1. No, sir; they were not.
Q. You just answered a few moments ago that it was only four days between November 21 and Norember 25 ?
d. Well, I don t know what date they were sent up, you know. They go up and get the permit for remoral before we send the body. They might not have sent down for us to
Q. Well, they have got to wait until the end of the fire days, haven't
they, to know whether the body will be claimed? How can they get a permit to remove a body before the five days are over, according to law ?
Mr. REED. That is a question for the Board of Health,
Q. When did Mary McCarthy die ?
A. She died on the 18th, I think. She died on the 18th, I believe, if she was sent up on the 25th that would be over time.
Q. Well, was she sent up on the 25th ?
A. I don't know, sir. She couldn't have been sent up before, because we didn't have a permit to remove the body until the 25th, according to that testimony.
Q. Well, this testimony related to Wallace wasn't any testimony here relating to Mary McCarthy ?
A. All went up on the same boat.
Q. Well, now, doctor, you had here oh, I want to ask you one other thing, doctor. You have answered Mr. Curtis' questions about the advantages of classification and occupation for paupers, in which I understand you fully agree with him.
Mr. Reed. Did he ask him any such questions?
Mr. BRANDEIS. Well, Mr. Reed's questions, in which you agree with Mr. Cwtis.
Q. What, Dr. Cogswell. did you say about the necessity of other buildings for the purpose of carrying out that?
4. Well, I said if you were going to carry out a moral and social classification I thought that, in order to have the classification complete and the separation complete, you would need a large number of small buildings well separated and isolated from each other.
Q. Yes, and that that was desirable for the purpose of carrying out your general plan of giving occupation to the inmates ?
H. If you were going to give the inmates occupation down there I should judge that it would be necessary to furnish some indoor occupation, and in order to do that satisfactorily with the number of people that we have down there to-day I think that it would be necessary to have additional buildings for workshops.
Q. And that the present buildings, as now being constructed, are not well adapted for that purpose ?
4. No, sir; they are not, I don't think not for workshops.
Q. Well, now, this idea of classification and occupation which both the candidate for the mayoralty and you agree mpon, this general plan for the institutions, is not a new idea - it is a pretty old idea, isn't it, in this city ?
1. I think it is, yes, sir.
I can't give you the date. I think it was quite awhile ago, though.
Q. Yes. Did the commissioners, in speaking to you about your duties and qualifications for Long Island, refer in any way to the fact that this matter bad been investigated under il committee appointed by the mayor and council of Boston some years ago with a view to the proper treatment of the poor?
A. I don't remember that they did, sir.
Q. You remember that there wils some such report made after a full investigation, don't you?
A. You refer to the one of 1892 ?