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Q. No, I mean the one that was made long before that, the one made in 1878?

A. No, sir; I wasn't personally acquainted with that.
Q. You hadn't heard of that in any way?

No, sir.
Q. Before it was put in evidence here.
Å. Not before it was put in evidence, no, sir.

Q. You are sure the commissioners didn't mention any such thing to you?

A. Yes, sir; I don't think they did.
Q. But they did speak to you about the visitors' report of 1892 ?
4. No, sir; I don't think they did.

Q. Well, don't you think, doctor, that if for the purpose of carrying out the admittedly correct inethod of conducting this institution, recognizing classification and occupation, a different kind of building is required from that which they have got down there, it is unfortunate that the commissioners should have constructed a building of this kind at great expense, which is not desirable?

d. No, sir; because they would have to have this building any way. These other buildlinys are an addition to what we have got now. You have got to hilve a place for people to sleep, eren if you do want them to work.

Q. Well, according to your plan, according to what you call, I think, the cottage system, were you going to have them sleep in the institution building?

A. No, sir.

Q. What were you going to have, then,- going to have two residences for those people

, A. No, sir; I was talking about one system of classification and you were talking about another. If they beliered in the moral and social classification, why, of course they wouldn't have gone to work and built such a building as this, but I suppose their experience has taught them perhaps that the plan was rather Utopian.

Q. Had they ever attempted it in any way?
A. I don't know, sir.

Q. You know from what you heard here that the very idea of small buildings, cottage buildings of this sort, had been suggested in the earlier report, don't you?

A. I think I remember it; yes, sir.

Q. Well, now, you strongly approved of the idea of a separation of the sexes, didn't you?

4. Yes, sir.
Q. The greatest possible separation of the sexes?

Yes, sir. Q. Well, don't you think it unfortunate, if that is to be carried out, that the two sexes should be on the same island within it comparatively short distance of one another?

A. I think that the separation can be carried out sufficiently well even on the same island.

Q. How do you propose to do it ?

Å. I can hardly conceive of an institution of that kind without some men around, and I think that on that island we can keep them as well separated

Q. You think you can keep all the men and all the women separate ? A. No, sir; I do not.

Q. Well, how do you propose to keep the men separate from the women on that island?

A. I don't propose to have the nien go on the portion of the island which is l'eserved for the women, nor the women on the portion of the island reserved for the men.

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Q. How are you going to prevent it?
d. IVell
Q. What is the distance - just what is the distance ?

About 150 to 500 feet.
Q. Between what?
A. Between the men's and the women's dormitory.

Q. Yes. Now, how are you going to prevent the men and women from meeting on that island - communicating in some way if they don't absolutely meet?

A. I have got notices prohibiting the men from going on certain portions of the island, and I am going to have notices prohibiting the women from'going on certain portions of the island.

Q. Well, under your ideas of the discipline and powers of discipline of the commissioners, you don't have much faith in putting up notices, do you?

Well, it works fairly well. Q. You don't seem to have had much success here, do you, according to the idea you have given us in your argument?

1. I can do certain things, but there are certain things I cannot do.

Q. Well, you think you can keep the men away from the women, do you, and the women away from the men ?

A. I think I can.
Q. How are you going to do it?

Just as I said.
Q. That is, by posting notices ?

Ă. And prohibiting them from going there, and if I see any one going there, or any officer sees them going, discharge them.

Q. And then have them come back the next day?
A. hope by that time that they won't.

Q. Then you hare got to rely upon yourself and the officers seeing whether they obey your rules, hare you?

4. Certainly.
Q. And that is all you propose to rely on, is it?
d. Yes, sir.

Q. How many additional officers are you going to have there as a police, to watch between?

A. I can't tell as to that.

Q. Well, how many do you think would be necessary in order to keep the sexes apart?

A. Well, we will have to determine that after we get them there. Q. Have you discussed the matter with the commissioners? d. Yes, sir.

Q. What were your discussions ? When did you first discuss it with the commissioners?

A. I don't remember.
Q. How long ago ?
d. I couldn't tell.
Q. About how long ago ?
A. Oh, it wils quite a long time ago.
Q. Pending this investigation ?

A. I presume like enough that it was sometime before, but I couldn't tell as to that.

Q. Before they built, before they began the building there, the new building for the women ?

I think it was about the time they began to build it.
Q. How did you bappen to mention it?'
1. I couldn't tell you tliat.
Q. You made a suggestion that you didn't think it advisable?
A. No, sir; I don't think I did.

d.

Q. Never suggested that to the commissioners ?
A. No, sir; I never did.

Q. Did they consult with you as to the advisability of putting up the women's dormitory in close proximity to the men's?

A. No, sir, I don't think they did.
Q. Well, how did you happen to discuss the matter?
Å. I couldn't tell you.
Q. No recollection whatever in regard to it?
A. Not as to what brought it up, no, sir.

Q. Well, now, doctor, you gave us a list the last time of some improvements which had been made at Long Island since the Board of Visitors went down there and this investigation began. Have you thought of any additional improvements ?

A. I haven't thought of it since; no, sir.
Q Well, there have been some other improvements, haven't there?

4. If you have got any list I can tell you whether they have been made or not.

Q. Made some improvements in the grareyard, didn't you?
d. Oh, yes; yes, sir, we did.
Q. Well, that you didn't mention the other day ?
A. No, sir; I didn't.

Q. That was made in pursuance of Jr. Farmer's suggestions in the Board of Visitors' report?

A. No, sir.
Q. Was it made after that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Made after that?
A.

Yes, sir; but his suggestions had nothing to do with it.
Q. But, as a mere coincidence, you made them after that time?

No, sir; I don't consider it such. We began burying there last June.

Q. Yes, and betteen last June and the time the risitors made their report, February 10, you didn't make any improvement. After that you diil. Is that the fact?

A. Up to the time they had made their visit there we hadn't had any special opportunity to make any improvements. If the Lord preserves me to staly down there, you will see more improrements probably in the next year than you hare seen the last year; and. relatirely speaking. I think we made greater improrements from the time I went there up tu the first of January than we have since.

Q. You did ?
st I think so, just as many.

Q. What were the improvements you made between the time you went there and the first of January!

Well, I think that we made a good many improrenents in our system of book-keeping.

Q. In these records, for instance, where you omitted to keep a record of the burials where up to that time they had always been kept, is that what you refer to?

d. No, sir.
Q. Keeping this little burial book here. this grocer's book?

That illustrates pretty well, that is what we started with. It was a new thing and we didn't know exactly what we wanted. But we did know one thing we wanted, and that was to be sure that we got the number of the grave, iind the name of the person that was in that grare, illd from time to time we iudded to it; and when I considered that I bad got as far as I could a perfect system, theu I got this book. Simply because the Board of Visitors happened to go down there meanwhile, I don't think it is hair or just to lay it to the fact that they cane there. It would have been done even if they had stayed away.

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Q. Dr. Cogswell, this change in the trough, the sink where you used to make the puddings that you made, had that anything to do with the Board of Visitors' report?

A. Yes, sir; it did, directly.
Q. That was made in consequence ?

d. That was made in consequence of a statement that Mr. Farmer made to the commissioners, and at the same time he said, ils I understand it, that he wanted the thing kept quiet, that he didn't want them to say anything about it, and he wasn't going to say anything about it. Q. (By Ald. LEE.) \Vho said that?

Mr. Farmer, and then he went and put it in his report. Mr. RILEY. - It was good stufl'.

The WITNESS. Well, up to that time, Mr Riley, it was very good stuff as far as I tasted it. Of course I hadn't been able to judge much around that time, because I wasn't around doing business. But the pudding was first engineered by Mr. McCaffrey, if my memory serves me right.

Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) Well, you don't know anything about it, do you?

Å. Oh, yes; he had to come to me first to get the ingredients to build it with. Ald. LEE. - What do you mean

of the pudding? Mr. BRANDEIS. No, of the sink. The WITNESS.— The pudding, yes.

Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) Well, now, you also since the visitors were down there added on a nursery matron, didn't you?

A. Yes, sir, we did, but the nursery matron was recommended, and the permission to hire her secured from the commissioners some time before the Board of Commissioners made their report, even their first report.

Q. How long before ?
A. I think about two or three weeks - two weeks.
Q. After the Board of Visitors went down there, was it?
A. Yes, sir; it was after the Board of Visitors went down there.
Q. When was she hired ?

A. She was hired somewhere about the 1st of March. She didn't come there, though, until St. Patrick's day. I remember that.

Q. (By Ald. LEE ) You mean Evacuation day, don't you?
A. Excuse me, I meant Evacuation clay.
Q. (By Mr. BRANVEIS.) When dicl the visitors make their report?

Å. The Board of Visitors, if I remember correctly, made their report about the middle or the last of February.

Q. The middle -- wasn't it the 16th?
A.

The 16th of February, and the matrou Wils hired, as I say, about the first of March and I got permission to hire her about a month before I did.

Q. That is, after the Board of Visitors went down there, but before they made their official report ?

Yes, sir.
Q. Had they talked to you about il nursery matron ?
A. I don't know.
Q. Don't you remember talking with Mrs. Evans about it?

4. If Mrs. Evans says I talked with her about a nursery matron I haven't inny doubt but what I did talk to her.

Q. Why did it take you so long, between the first of February and March, to get her down there?

4. Well, if my memory serves me, I was sick in bed for about three or four weeks and it rather incapacitated me.

Q. That was January?

A. I was sick from the 15th of January until about the 1st of March, so that it broke me up on doing business between those days.

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Q. Now, doctor, there was some testimony here, some complaint, some early testimony, that there were no window screens in the hospital, patients not having a nurse and not having any window screens and suffering from flies. You have put in some window screens since that time?

A. Yes, sir.
Q. When were they put in ?

At the beginning of the summer - I began in the middle of winter to have them built.

Q. Who built those ?

A. Well, some of them were built by inmates, and some were built by carpenters from Deer Island.

Q. You spoke, doctor, about a long list, ahout the various lists, requisitions that were made on you. Mrs. Kinney, as head nurse, furnished you a list of things desirable for a hospital, didn't she?

A. Yes, she did.
Q. Where is that list — I requested the counsel to produce the list ?

A. I don't think I have it - in fact I know I haven't it, because I divided that list into things I had, things I was going to get, and things that I couldn't get.

Q. How long a list was it -- how many items on a list: Ă. I couldn't tell you that. It was given in pursuance to my request or my own private use. She had been there then about three months. It was just previous to her departure, ind I tolil ber it would be a favor to me, in the light of her experience down there and her previous experience in other places, if she would put down on a piece of paper everything that she could think of that, if we had it or could get it, would be of benefit to the hospital.

Q. Yes; now, it is that paper that I would like. I think counsel will find in my notice a special request to produce the list given by the nurse.

A. Well, it isn't here.
Q. How do you know?

Because I didn't bring it.
Q. Haren't you given it to counsel on prerious occasions ?
Q. No, sir; I haven't.
Mr. BRANDEIS. Then I request it to be brought.

Mr. REED). Counsel never heard of i special letter or list of that kind.

Mr. BRANDEIS. It is included in No. 9, in my letter.

Mr. REED. It is somewhere and we will find it, but we cannot hare the list to-night.

Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) Now, doctor, since you have had this nursery matron how many children are there in the hospital?

A. You will have to be a little more definite than that, I guess.
Q. How many children are there now?
4. Now?
Q. Now.

A. Well, I couldn't tell, because there might a few have come this afternoon.

Q. Well, how many at last accounts ? d. Last accounts, fourteen.

Q. Ilow many last winter, at the time the Board of Visitors went down there.

I think when they went down there were somewhere around twenty-one or twenty-two. I know when they came from Rainsforul Island in the spring of 1893 there were twenty-five, and they kept dwindling «ff until the summer of 1893 when we had a very few, I don't think more than six or seven, and this last winter they came up again, and I think we got up to twenty-one or twenty-two. I wouldn't be sure as to that. And then this spring they have been dwindling

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