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down again. At one time I think we got down as low as five. Now this winter they are beginning to come up again, and we have gotten up as high as fourteen or fifteen - perhaps sixteen, I wouldn't say.

Q. Well, at the time the visitors were there and you had some twenty-six or so they were right in saying you didn't have any nursery matron, weren't they?

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Mr. BRANDEIS. Well, now, Mr. Reed, this is the letter under date of November 22, and this is the item I have referred to: "The lists of articles required for the use of the hospital delivered or addressed to the present superintendent from time to time, by the physicians or nurses at the hospital."

Mr. PROCTOR. May I look at that just a moment, please?
Mr. REED. You think that covers the list you want, do you?
Mr. BRANDEIS. I certainly do.

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Mr. PROCTOR. Well, is there any other list, Brother Brandeis?
Mr. BRANDEIS. Well, I want them all.
Well, I want them all. This is only one of them

that I am now asking for. I asked for all of them.

The WITNESS. Now, I would like you to be a little explicit in that, because you don't want it where they have called for two bunches of matches and a gallon of kerosene. That isn't what you have reference to, is it?

Mr. PROCTOR. — That is the difficulty with your notice, you see.

Mr. BRANDEIS.—I did'nt suppose they had one for two gallons of kerosene.

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Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) How many orders do the nurses and physicians give for the hospital? How frequently do they give orders? A. Every day.

Q. Every day?

A. Yes, sir.

For supplies, as distinguished from diet orders and the like? A. Yes, sir.

Q. I want those in which they called for supplies for equipping the hospital.

Ald. LEE. Well, how far are you going back? Are you going to bring the whole island up here?

Mr. BRANDEIS. - During the administration of the present superintendent.

The hearing was adjourned at 7.30 o'clock P.M. to Thursday, December 6 at 4 o'clock P.M.


THURSDAY, December 6, 1894.

The hearing was resumed at 4 o'clock P.M., Chairman HALLSTRAM presiding.

Mr. REED. Mr. Chairman, the second witness whom you have the privilege of putting on when he came in here to-day, and I will put him on the stand now Dr. Spring, of Fitchburg.

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Q. (By Mr. REED.) Your full name, please, doctor?

A. Clarence W. Spring.

Q. And you reside in Fitchburg?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And are in practice there as a physician?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You are a graduate of the Harvard Medical School, are you not, doctor?

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A. I am; yes, sir.

Q. In what class were you graduated from Dartmouth College?
A. '80.

Q. Were you a classmate at Dartmouth of Dr. Cogswell's?
A. I was; yes, sir.

Q. And were you in the Medical School at Harvard at the same time that Dr. Cogswell was?

A. I was, yes sir.

Q. Since your graduation from the Harvard Medical School, have you had any experience in hospital work?

A. Yes, sir; I have.

Q. Will you state what that experience has been?

A. I served a year at the Children's Hospital here in Boston as House Officer.

Q. Are you a member of any of the medical societies?

A. A member of the Massachusetts Medical Society; yes, sir.

A. Have you ever been abroad, doctor, and visited any of the hospitals abroad?

A. I have, yes, sir.

Q. When was that that you were abroad?

A. I was abroad in 1889.

Q. You are at present city physician of the city of Fitchburg, are you not?

A. I am; yes, sir.

Q. How long have you held that position?

4. I bave held it nearly two years. The two years will be up in January.

Q. What other official position do you hold?

A. I am chairman of the board of health of the city, and a one of the visiting surgeons at the Burbank Hospital.

Q. You are chairman of the board of health of the city of Fitchburg?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And visiting physician to the Burbank Hospital — visiting physician or surgeon?

. I am on the regular staff of physicians and surgeons.

Q. Have you ever visited the hospital on Long Island at the Home for Paupers?

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Q. Then you spent Saturday afternoon and all day Sunday, and left there Monday morning, as I understand you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. The new hospital was then in operation, was it not?

A. Yes, sir; it was.

Q. Do you have anything to do with the almshouse in Fitchburg?

A. Yes, sir; I have charge of it as physician.

Q. And what was your purpose in visiting Long Island in May, '93 ?

A. It was partly to spend Sunday at the island with Dr. Cogswell and partly to look over the institution and the hospital with reference to seeing what they had there and the methods of taking charge of such a place.

Q. Well, do you remember about what time of day you arrived there on Saturday?

4. I think it was in the afternoon the early afternoon. I won't say just when the boat reached there.

Q. You went down on the " Bradlee," I presume?

A. I think I did.

Q. And did you have any opportunity that afternoon of looking about the place?

A. I won't say certain as to the "Bradlee."

I don't know but theBradlee" was being repaired at that time, but I went down on a boat.

Q. Well, did you have any opportunity to visit the hospital or the institution that afternoon?

A. Yes, sir; I did.


Q. Well, did you visit the hospital?

A. I did.

Q. Did you go into the institution that afternoon?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. The institution building?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you say you remained there all the following day, Sunday?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, I would like to ask you if in the hospital you saw any bath-tubs?

A. Yes, sir; I did.

Q. And were those bath-tubs in rooms apart from the hospital wards?

A. As I remember it they were in between. I won't say certain just exactly how they lay, because I haven't thought of it, but as I remember it they were off from the passageway, in between the wards.

Q. Now, you went there, as I understand it, doctor, for the purpose of looking the place over to gain what information you could to aid you in the proper management of an almshouse, and I would like to ask you with what impression as to that institution you came away?

A. Well, now, my impression was that the institution was clean, the hospital building was new, everything looked clean, the rooms were clean, the wards were clean so far as I could judge. The patients in the wards appeared to be well cared for, receiving attention from nurses, and the rooms opening directly out of the wards the kitchen and the dinning-room attached to the ward were clean. My general impression was it was a hospital which was well provided for and well being taken care of.

Q. And what impression was left in your mind as to the institution itself?

4. Well, the institution differs so entirely from the one of which I have charge that the impression could hardly be compared with that which I have of other such institutions, but I saw no evidence of dirt or bad smells or poor air, and the beds looked clean and the patients seemed comfortable. The almshouse is divided into two parts, as I understand it the hospital department and the regular institution and it was more especially with reference to the hospital that I went there.

Q. Do you know how long the hospital had been in operation at the time you made this visit?

A. I do not; no, sir.

Q. You knew in a general way that it had been started but a short time before you went there?

A. I understood it was new and had not been long in operation.

Q. But you don't recall now anything that impressed you unfavorably in regard to either the hospital or the institution?

A. No, sir; I don't think I could recall anything in particular.


Q. (By Mr. Brandeis.) You are an intimate friend of Dr. Cogswell's?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Have been for

A. Since '76, when we entered college together.

Q. Yes, and have you ever been down to Long Island since that day in May, 1893?

A. I have not, sir.

Q. Just before the opening?

A. I have not, sir.

Q. You don't know, then, whether these various abuses that have been testified to here arising through Dr. Cogswell's administration are true or not I mean as to the condition of the hospital, and how it has been run during this period, up to, say, last May?

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A. I simply testified as to my visit in May, 1893.

Q. That is all you know about it?

A. That is all I know about it.

Q. You didn't go over it with a view to criticising or finding fault in any way, but to get suggestions in regard to the new building which had been much talked about and the place generally, I suppose?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you make any particular investigation at that time, or merely get a general impression from the examination?

A. I simply got an impression general examination of the points which I wished to consider.

Q. In the matter of the institution, did you go into the question of the ventilation there?

A. I didn't discuss the matter of ventilation.

Q. Do you have any distinct recollection as to the men's infirmary and the women's infirmary there?

A. In what regard?

Q. As to the question of air and ventilation?

A. I did not go into that matter. My impression was that which any man would obtain by the sense of smell.

Q. I beg your pardon?

4. My impression was simply that which any man would obtain by the sense of smell. I went into no scientific discussion of what the process was of removing foul air or introducing fresh


Q. Well, did you go into it with a view of taking any special note of what the condition was?

A. I didn't; no, sir.



Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) Dr. Cosgswell, in your argument on the milk question here you say that you had occasion to examine into this subject of milk five separate times, as I remember it. Is that so?

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