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A. Yes, sir.

Q. What were those five times?

A. The first time was right after I went there, after I had been there a few days.

Q. Yes; that was in March, was it, or in April?

A. It was about the latter part of March, I think.

Q. Well, now, I will just try to locate the times first, and then

we will go into them?

A. I said the latter part of March exact date of any of them, excepting the

I don't remember the

last time, which was on the twenty-seventh day, twenty-six or twenty-seventh day of December, '93 those are the first and last times. The three

intermediate times I don't remember.

Q. When approximately was the second time?

A. I don't think I could give it with any degree of accuracy, even approximately

Q. Well, putting it within two

place it?

months where would you

not within, perhaps, two months.

well, it was in the early

4. I should place it about the


Q. June, perhaps?

A. Well, I wouldn't want to say, Mr. Brandeis.

Q. That was the second. When was the third time?

A. I couldn't tell you.

Q. State it approximately.

A. I couldn't do that.

Q. Well, how near was it to the second time?

A. I couldn't tell you that. somewhat near together, but I wouldn't say as to the exact time of either, because I don't remember. Those that I do remember I give you the dates of them those that I don't I couldn't.

I think the third and fourth were

Q. Well, now, what was the occasion of that first investigation?

A. It was due to the fact that we were not having much milk in the hospital. I believe Dr. Dever reported the fact to me that they were short of milk in the hospital.

Q. Well, now, just what did Dr. Dever report at that time? 4. That they needed more milk in the hospital, I think.

Q. Well, were those his words?

A. I couldn't tell you, sir.

Q. How long did he say had that condition existed?


A. I don't know how long he said—I don't remember. don't know as he mentioned any time, but it couldn't have been very long as far as I was concerned, because I hadn't been there but a few days.

Q. You don't have any recollection, then, as to what he said beyond that they were short of milk in the hospital?

A. No, sir.

Q. Well, who else at that time complained of it besides Dr. Dever?


A. I don't know as anybody else complained to me about it.
Q. Well, didn't anybody else make any remarks to you about

A. I know that Mr. McCaffrey and I talked it over, but Mr. McCaffrey I don't think made any complaints to me that the milk was short in the hospital.

Q. Oh, I don't mean that he found fault with you.

A. No. He and I talked the matter over, as I naturally would when I was trying to find out where the trouble was.

Q. Now, you made an investigation then, and what was the result of your investigation?

A. Why, we ordered some milk from the hospital.

Q. What?

A. We ordered the milk from the Commissioners and they sent it over from Deer Island.

Q. Yes; that is, you ordered at that time. You found that it was short?

A. Yes, sir; it was that they were not getting as much milk as they called for or as they ought to have.

Q. Yes; and you undertook to remedy it by getting some supplies from the city?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Well, now, when was the next time? What was the occasion of your second investigation? Let me ask first, before we pass to that question, how do you fix that time as being about the middle of March or beginning of April?

A. Because it was just after I got there, and I found that the trouble was that they had been having milk sent, if I remember correctly, there was milk sent from the city to Rainsford Island, and they had been taking off as much milk at Long Island as they found they needed, and at that time the cows, a good many of them, had run dry, and we were not getting enough milk from the barn to supply the demands of the institution and hospital. Q. That is, you found that they were selling milk over to Rainsford Island?

A. No, sir.

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Mr. CURTIS. He didn't say 66 selling " he said " sending.” The WITNESS. - I said sending milk to Rainsford Island from the city, and they were also taking milk from that supply at Long Island. If they sent for fifteen cans to go to Long and Rainsford islands, and they needed four cans at Long Island one day they took four cans, and if they needed three they took three, and if they needed six they took six. Those are merely illustrations. Q. The trouble was in the division of the milk that came from the city as to what was kept at Long Island and what went to Rainsford?

A. No, sir.

Q. What was the trouble?

4. Just what I said.

Q. Well, will you say it again? I didn't understand you. The interruptions here disturbed my attention.

4. Until I went there they took milk for Long and Rainsford islands.

Q. From the city?

A. From the city.

Q. Yes.

A. Practically the most of it was for Rainsford Island?
Q. Yes.

A. They had the cows on Long Island, and what the cows failed to supply they took from the Rainsford Island milk as it came from the city.

Q. Yes.

A. And when the two islands were separated and the accounts were separated we didn't have any right to take the milk that went to Rainsford Island or was brought to Rainsford Island. Q. Yes.

A. So we didn't have that supply to call on, and, as I say, the cows were running dry at that time, and so we filled up on our supply.

Q. Yes; and that is how the trouble arose this first time?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. That was the cause of the trouble as you found it to be about the first of April?

4. That is the way I accounted for the fact that they had run short. Of course, the fact that they had run short was due primarily to the fact that the cows we depended on for our milk ran dry, partially.

Q. And secondarily, because this supply from the city had been cut off?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, that you undertook to remedy by ordering from the city or Deer Island, ordering through the Commissioners, and milk came to you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, what was the occasion of your second investigation? A. At noon-time Dr. Dever used to come to me pretty often and say that the milk bad given out from the hospital kitchen. Our milk is sent to the hospital kitchen and from there distributed to the different wards.

Q. Yes.

A. And he kept coming to me saying that the cook had sent down word that the milk had run short, and I used to tell him to send over to the milk-room and get some more, and the storekeeper told me that he had sent the amount of milk that was called for each time; so I went to work to see what the trouble was, and I found they were not measuring the milk very accurately in the kitchen; that they were measuring it in. I think, a two or three quart pitcher, measuring it out in that way, and the consequence was that those they measured it out to first would get more than enough, and those that they came to last were falling short.

Q. Well, did anybody else complain besides Dr. Dever at that second period?

A. No, sir.

Q. About the shortage of milk?

A. No, sir; because naturally there wouldn't anybody else know about it except he and the cook, because there was always milk enough. We sent over to the store and got more. We had milk enough on the island, only

Q. Now, when Dr. Dever complained this second time what did you do to remedy that complaint?

A. I got a big two-quart measure made for the cook and got it made at Deer Island, and I had it made as a dipper for convenience' sake:

Q. Now, how was that to operate that two-quart dipper? How was that going to relieve the distress in milk?

A. Well, there wasn't any distress in milk. I didn't say there was any distress in milk.

Q. For the patients?

A. Well, the patients got their milk just the same, only some of them got more than they were ordered.

Q. Well, but the others got less?

A. No, they didn't. They got it eventually.

Q. Why did Dr. Dever complain if they got all they wanted? A. He didn't complain kept coming to me and saying they were short of milk in the kitchen, not short in the hospital, because it hadn't been given out in the hospital at that time.

Q. Well, how did the quart measure remedy the difficulty?
A. It didn't.

Q. Well, what did you do?

A. We kept on having the trouble, and I thought I would see if there was any trouble with the two-quart measure, and I found it measured nearly a pint over two quarts.

Q. That was the one that was made for you at Deer Island? A. That was the one that had been made specially for us. Q. Well, false weights and measures, I suppose, you would expect from criminals.

Mr. PROCTor. - Well, it was good measure.

Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) That resulted, did it, in the third investigation?

A. That was the result of the third; yes, sir.

Q. Who made the complaint to you that led to this third investigation?

A. It was the same thing. Dr. Dever kept coming to me and saying that the cook said they had run short of milk. We used to send over the morning and noon supply in the morning. Q. Yes.

A. And we never ran short in the morning, because there was always enough, even if they were getting four or five extra quarts, perhaps, but when it came to the noon supply, why, of course, they were just so much short.

Q. Now, what did you do to remedy this trouble?

A. I ordered a quart.

Q. Ordered a quart made

from Deer Island?

A. No, sir; I don't think this came from Deer Island.

Q. Well, you ordered that quart, and did the complaint cease then?

A. It did for awhile, and then the next complaint came from the wards, that they were not having milk enough. They used to fall short.

Q. Well, now, whom did these complaints come from?

A. This last one, I think, came from Mr. Morphy, if I remem

ber correctly.

Q. Yes; who else?

A. I think - well, I wouldn't want to say.

Q. Had Dr. Dever left the island then?

A. I wouldn't want to say.

Q. Didn't he complain?

A. Dr. Dever?

Q. Yes the fourth time?

A. No, the fourth time he didn't.

Q. Well, did Dr. Sullivan complain?

4. No, sir.

Q. Did Dr. Parker complain?

A. No, sir.

Q. Well, the only person you remember, then, was Morphy, the nurse, was it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. That was all, was it?

A. Yes, sir; that is all I remember at that time.

Q. Well, when you investigated what did you do?

4. I got them all some half-pint measures, for all the wards. Q. Yes.

A. They were measuring them out in pint cups, and I didn't think they were measured very accurately, and I thought the trouble might be in that, so I got them all some half-pint measures, which was the regular ration allowed in the hospital.

Q. Those came from Deer Island?

A. I don't know where those came from.

Q. Well, after you got those half-pint measures did the difficulty cease?

Ă. The next I heard about any shortage of milk was the day after Christmas, from Dr. Parker, and he told me that the milk had been at that time short to a considerable extent in the male wards and partly in the female wards, but not to such a great extent, for some few days-1 don't remember as he gave any number of days at that time. He said the milk had been short some time, and on looking it up I found it had been short for about two weeks.

Q. Well, what records did you keep to show whether the milk was short or whether it was sufficient?

A. The records of the cook.

Q. What were they?

A. She called for so much milk and then put down how much she delivered to the wards.

Q. Was that kept in a book?

1. That was kept on some blue slips of paper. It was not kept in any book. It wasn't to be a matter of permanent record as I understood it when I commenced. I never thought that it was anything that would be kept. I don't think it is kept in any hospital, but there are memoranda to be carried along every day, and it simply shows how much is needed, and then it also tells you whether they have received or distributed what they got.

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