1

Q. Well, didn't you begin that on the first day of January in consequence of the conversation you had with the visitors? A. No, sir.

Q. Had nothing to do with it?

4. Had nothing whatever to do with it, and I wouldn't say Q. Now, what was the conversation you had with the visitors? A. I don't remember. I wouldn't say it was the first day they were down might have been the second, but my impression is the first day they were down.

Q. Well, what was the conversation you had with the visitors? A. I don't remember the exact conversation, or whether it was the first or second time, but I do remember a conversation I had with Mrs. Evans about it. Whether it was the first or the second day or the third day, I don't remember.

Q. Yes, what was that conversation?

A. I couldn't give you the exact language. I don't pretend to do that, but the idea was that we had had trouble with our milk and she asked me to explain it, and I explained it that part of

it came at one time through the measure not being accurate, and that I also thought it might be due to the fact that the people who distributed it or carried it were not honest, and might take it, which would cut some of it short. I also told her that it was. I thought, due, a part of it, to the fact that we sent it over at one time the morning and noon supply in the morning and in order to obviate that difficulty I had made some changes in my method of keeping the account on those blue slips, which was to signify at each meal what was to be sent over.

Q. Well, didn't she point out to you this shortage which had been taken place, and about which the complaint had been made?

A. Yes.

Q. Didn't you state to her that you couldn't explain it, and didn't know the cause of it?

A. Yes, I did at that time. I didn't know what was the cause of the shortage at that time.

Q. You didn't show her any of the books then, at any time, which you kept, excepting those slips?

A. I showed her those slips.

Q. Everything you showed her was there, and you told her that was the only record you had, didn't you?

A. I don't think I did.

Q. Well, it was the only record you had?

A. No, sir; if it was the second day she was there. I don't remember when we had this conversation, whether it was the first, second, or third day.

Q. That is all you remember, is it, of your conversation with ber upon that subject?

A. On the subject of the milk; yes, sir.

Q. Well, now, I asked last time that you should bring that requisition the list of articles that Mrs. Kinuey prepared for the hospital. Have you got that here?

A. No, sir; I haven't.

Q. Why not?

A. I thought I did have until I started. I came away in a hurry and I had some things packed up and didn't remember to bring them all. I thought I had this with me, but I haven't. I can bring it the next time that I come. It was forgetfulness on my part. I find that I have two lists of hers. I got them out, all ready to bring.

Q Yes. When were those lists made?

A. The first one was made after she had been there about ten

days, I think - I wouldn't give you the exact date and the last one was made just before she left.

Q. And both of them you have left at the island?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. If you will bring those the next time I would like to ask you a few questions in regard to them. And you bring also that book showing the deliveries of the milk for Rainsford Island and the boarding-house, will you?

A. I will try to; yes, sir.

Mr. BRANDeis.

to-day.

That is all I want to ask him about then,

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

Q. (By Mr. REED.) Doctor, when these alleged shortages of milk on the island occurred. I understand you to say that there was plenty of milk on the island in the milk-room?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And that whenever the matter was called to your attention you used every endeavor to have an amount of milk sent to the hospital to cover the alleged shortages?

A. I did.

Q. And so far as you know no person in the hospital ever had to go without milk.

Mr. BRANDEis. who was cut off?

You mean to except Murray, old man Murray,

The WITNESS. I mean to say this, that so far as I know we never had a shortage of milk on the island so that any patient in the hospital has ever suffered or gone without it that needed it, and certainly Murray couldn't have gone without it because we didn't have it, because we were giving milk to the inmates over in the institution at that time.

Mr. BRANDEIS.

Mr. BRANDeis.

Well, he didn't get it.

He didn't say whether he did or not.

Oh, yes; in his argument he says he didn't.

Mr. REED. In his what?

Mr. BRANDEIS.

The WITNESS.

-In his argument.

- No, I didn't, Mr. Brandeis.

Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) You stated that Murray didn't get the milk, didn't you? — the old man Murray, who was cut off from his milk and died three days afterwards?

1. Oh, no, nothing of the kind, Mr. Brandeis no.

Mr. REED. He didn't say anything of that kind, Mr. Brandeis. I don't think he did.

The WITNESS. I know I didn't.

Q. (By Mr. REED.) I only wanted to make the fact clear that at these times when it is claimed that there was a shortage of milk, and that milk was sold, there was an abundance of milk in the storeroom, and all that you had to do was to send over and get it. Now, is that true?

A. Yes, sir; I think it is.

Q. And so far as you know at those times, when a second order was sent to the storeroom for milk it was procured? Is that true? A. As far as I know it is true. Whenever they came to me I think they always got what they asked for in the storeroom.

Q. Now, a good deal has been said about Clerk Hinds. That man has been an inmate of the institution, as I understand you, had he not?

A. I think he was for about three months in the hospital.

Q. That was before you went there, wasn't it?

Mr. REED. -- I would like to submit that book to the committee as showing whether the man is a good penman or not.

Q. And that man, as I understand you, was brought to the poor-house because of a habit of drinking?

A. No, sir; not to my knowledge.

Q. Didn't you make that statement?

A. Oh, no.

Q. Or was it Mr. Brandeis?

A. I never made such a statement, because I don't know that it was so. He came there from the City Hospital suffering from an acute attack of Bright's disease, as I understand it, and had been at the City Hospital some time and was sent down there to convalesce.

Q. Well, at the present time he is doing well there?

d. He is.

Q. And if there is an example of what they call a reform in pauperism he is an example of that. He has gone from a pauper to a self-supporting individual is that not true?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And how does Mr. Hinds perform his duties as clerk?

A. I consider that he performs them in a very creditable manner, as far as I have been able to judge.

Q. Now, as to the books which have been commented freely upon here, I want to ask you one question. When you went to Long Island and took charge of the institution did you not find there in use a book which has been presented here and which is marked at the top of the page, "Burial Book "Burial Book" then in use for some purpose?

A. It evidently was in use and not for the purpose of a burial book.

Q. Well, you found that book there when you went there, didn't you?

A. No, sir, I didn't.

Q. Where was it?

A. It was there and being used, but I didn't find it. If I had found it it wouldn't

Q. Well, is that the book?

A. Yes, sir; that is the book. That is the book which was used not as a record of burials, but as a death book.

Q. Well, then, there was another book here I don't know where it is now which has been called the "Grocer's Pass Book' and a good deal of fun has been made of it. I want to ask you a question about those books now. Now, that little book was started by you after you went there, wasn't it?

A. It was started by me when we first began to bury on Long Island.

Q. Previous to that time you had been burying on Rainsford Island?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Well, this is the little book to which I refer and the book which has been held up to ridicule here by Mr. Brandeis for two days?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, your purpose in starting that book, as I understand it, was this the book which I have just referred to

Mr. BRANDeis. Hadn't you better let him tell?
Mr. REED. I am going to.

Q. The book to which I have just referred as being in use when you went to the island, and the freight book and other books containing information in regard to the burial and disposition of bodies, were not satisfactory to you and you sought to institute some system of book-keeping, and this book is the result of your investigation and observation and that little book was used by you in the first instance to collect material for this book. correct?

Mr. REED. I am trying to see if I understand it.

Q. Is that correct, doctor?

A. Yes, sir; that is very nearly correct.

Is that

you or

Mr. REED. I think you have made so much sport of that book there that the committee ought to know what the book is. Mr. BRANDeis. I think with good cause.

Mr. CURTIS. Well, he had very little to get sport out of, so he had to take the book.

Mr. REED. I want the committee to know what the book is. Mr. BRANDEIS. I have no objection to your arguing. I will argue when the time comes.

Mr. REED. I am willing that you should have the same chance that I have, and we stand ready to argue this or any other matter with the other side.

Mr. CURTIS.

Both in and out of committee.

Mr. BRANDEIS. — I think that book is a proper subject of ridicule.

Mr. REED. And I do not agree with you in that.

The CHAIRMAN. Go on with the questions.

Mr. REED. I am trying to, but Mr. Brandeis insists upon interrupting me.

Mr. PROCTOR.

Insists upon testifying himself.

Q. (By Mr. REED.) Now, doctor, was this book suggested to you by the Board of Visitors either of 1892 or 1894, or did you originate this thing yourself?

A. I originated that myself, with some assistance from Mr. Pilsbury.

Q. Commissioner Pilsbury?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you had the book made, did you not, for this purpose? A. I did; yes, sir.

Q. Now, when did you begin to use the book?

A. We began to use it sometime either the latter part of March or the first of April.

Q. Of this year?

Ă. Of this year.

Q. And how long previous to the time of the beginning to use that book had you developed the plan?

A. Sometime about the first of the year.

Q. About the first of the year?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you had had the plan under consideration for some time previous to that, had you not?

A. Yes, sir, I had.

Q. How long?

A. Well, we had been working on it ever since
Q. A year ago last June?

A. Yes, sir.

about June.

Q. Among other things it is said that there has been a change made or an erasure or something in that little book. Now, is there anything else that shows when Frederick Rallion was discharged from the hospital either by death or otherwise?

4. Yes, sir, there is.

Q. Then whether that figure is changed or isn't changed doesn't make any difference in regard to the proof of the fact?

A. As to his death, no, sir.

Q. And what was the date of his death?

A. He died October 8

Q. Now, what is the other book or record which shows that date?

A. The hospital register.

Q. And on October 8 you were not on the island?

4. No, sir, I was not.

Q. Have you ever been informed of any change in the law regarding the power to punish or detain paupers for punishment in your institution since the time that you received the information