I should think it might; yes, sir.

Q. Now, if you found this to be the fact, doctor that, first taking the number of all the prisoners held in our prison institutions in this State, and saying that that number is about 8,000, that from all those institutions there were turned out last year ninety insane cases

A. Ninety?

Q. Ninety, and that from the House of Correction in our city, which averages between 500 and 600 prisoners, during that year there were turned out twenty-five of those ninety insane cases, and you found the Prison Commissioners of the State inquiring why it was that there was such a radical increase in the insane cases from that institution, would you not come to the conclusion that the solitary confinement such as I have described might have something to do with it?

A.

I should investigate that and see.

Q. Yes, but wouldn't that arouse your suspicions?

A.

That would be one thing; yes, sir.

A recess was taken at 6.25 o'clock P.M. to 7.30 o'clock P.M.

EVENING SESSION.

The hearing was resumed in the Aldermanic Chamber at 7.30 P.M., Chairman HALLSTRAM presiding.

Q.

Yes; 95 Milk street.

95 Milk street. You are a graduate of Harvard College?

A. Yes, sir; class of 1867.

Q. And you have given attention to scientific matters largely since that time?

Q. What experience have you had?

A. Well, I was practicing general civil engineering after graduation for seven years, and about 1875, nearly twenty years ago, I took up this specialty of sanitation, including ventilation, heating, plumbing, drainage, and allied subjects.

Q. How long have you pursued this particular branch of the business P

A. Well, specially ventilation, heating, and plumbing and draining since 1875.

Q. Are you familiar with the institution buildings at Long Island? A. Yes. I have done some work there

Q.

A.

some engineering work.

And how long have you been familiar with those buildings?

I should think for about three years, or a little more.

2. Have you visited the island frequently during that time?

A.

Yes; superintending work which was under construction.

Q. Well, the main building, the institution building, I understand is without any good system, any perfect system of ventilation?

A.

Yes; there is no system of ventilation.

Q. Have you made a study and devised a plan for the ventilation of that building?

A. Yes; for the City Architect. I made a plan and specifications for a system of ventilation.

Q. 4.

Q.

For the City Architect?

Yes.

And you have reported to the City Architect?

4. Yes. It has been estimated upon by contractors.

Q.

Then, all that remains necessary to put that plan of yours into operation is the funds?

A.
Q.

So I understand it.

And with that system in operation it is your judgment, is it not, that the ventilation will be all right?

A. So far as I am able to devise a system of ventilation, I think it would be.

Q, Now, as to the hospital building, are you familiar with the system of ventilation there?

it ?

A. Yes.

Q.

Yes. I designed it and superintended it.

You designed the system and superintended the construction of

1. Yes.

Q.

Are there any improvements that you would now suggest in regard to the ventilation of the hospital?

A.

I don't know of anything that could be added to it in the way of

apparatus.

Q. Then you are satisfied with the result of your plan for the ventilation of that building?

d. Yes.

Q. How much experience have you had during the past year with houses in general as to their sanitary condition ?

A. Well, I have inspected nearly 100 houses, I should say, of different classes.

Q.

And in that number do you include the buildings at Long Island? A. Yes; two of the new buildings at Long Island- that is, the hospital extension and the new dormitory. That is, those buildings have been what I call officially inspected and tested - put under actual test to find out their real condition.

Q.

Well, during your visits to Long Island have you taken notice of the sanitary condition of the institution building?

4. Well, I have never inspected it by my special process, but I have observed it as I passed through it.

Q. Now, will you state to the committee what the sanitary condition is of those buildings at Long Island?

A. Well, I should say this: When I first saw the institution building, that is what I call the Paupers' Home, the brick building, — I was impressed with its general cleanliness throughout. I was very much impressed with it, and on subsequent occasions when I have been in those buildings I have noticed what I saw the first time. Since this investigation began I have asked my assistants to do the same, and they have always found everything apparently in the best of order. Now, I would like to state a little more at length that in my inspection of houses, I have to go through the houses from top to bottom, from attic to cellar, and on the roof, and where there is a sub-basement I have to go into the sub-basement; and I think it would be a liberal education to the citizens of Boston if they could see the cellar and basement of those

buildings. They would there see what it is to have a thorougly clean basement and cellar. I am aware that there must be dirt there at times, especially when they are cleaning up, but I suppose any housekeeper would be dismayed if their house was put under inspection without notice, as I have to see them. I go in at any time, generally in the morning, and I find all kinds of conditions of things; but in only a few instances out of the 185 buildings that I have examined have I been struck with the general cleanliness and good appearance of the rooms and other places. That is my observation.

Q. Then, from your observation, as I understand it, you would say that the sanitary condition of the buildings on Long Island compares favorably with the condition of other buildings which you have examined?

4. More than favorably. I think they would be an example for the citizens to imitate. That is what I think of it.

Q. How long ago did you say your first visit to those buildings was made?

4. Well, it was when they were building the new hospital. Now, I cannot tell you when that was, but it was at the time the new hospital was under construction. It seems to me it must have been three years ago.

Q. Well, how often did you have occasion to go there?

A. More than once a month, I should say, and at all kinds of times. Sometimes in the morning and other times in the afternoon.

Q. Did you send notice of your approach?

4. No, I have frequently been in the buildings without any one knowing I was on the island, probably.

Q. What has been the condition of plumbing generally as to cleanli

ness?

A. As far as I could see it was in much better condition than I should have found it in any tenement in Boston a great deal more clean.

Q. What do you say of the plumbing in the hospital, the bathrooms, the bath-tubs, and the water-closets?

A. I should think they were very good; very well arranged and suitable.

Q. In the care of the plumbing, what did you notice?

A. It looked all right.

Q. How long, Mr. Tudor, have you been at work upon this system of ventilation which you devised for the institution building and which has not yet been put into operation?

4. I think it was begun about a year ago.

Q. And when was it completed?

A. The designs, you mean?

2. Yes, sir.

A. Well, I think they waited a long time before they were put out for bids. That was done, I should think, in the summer. My memory is imperfect about that.

Q. You mean that the City Architect waited a long time after you had submitted the scheme to him?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you think that thing was complete a year ago? Do you mean to say that you finished your work a year ago, or began it a year ago? 4. I should not think it was complete a year ago. I will say this. that there was a scheme laid out by another party, and Mr. Wheelwright, for reasons best known to himself, decided that he would not have their scheme. It was laid out more than a year ago. He afterwards gave it to me to lay out. He preferred my system, as I understood it.

2. Then your plan is not the first one that was made?

A. No, and I consider that the other one would have been a good plan. The objection to it was that it was a mechanical system that is, that it required a forced blast The system which I aid out is automatic.

4. Well, I have no system.

a blower.

Q. Well, the system which is under consideration for the building now, I mean.

4. It is a system which operates by heated shafts. That is, the movement of the air is brought about by heated shafts run up to the roof. There are inlets of air, and it is heated and discharged in each room, and the foul air is run up into the upper part of the building and finally discharged through upright shafts which are heated at the base by steam. That is the system.

Q. Is that system anything like the system in operation in the hospital building?

A. No.

Q. What is that system?

A. It depends almost entirely upon blowers- that is, fans; blowers which are run by electric motors.

Q. You have been a frequent visitor to the institution at Long Island. I suppose you went up and down on the city boat in making your visits, did you not?

A. Yes, always.

Q. And you have observed, undoubtedly, the treatment which the prisoners who were being taken down to the island to become inmates have received on the boat and on the island and in the institution?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, will you tell us what your opinion is as to the treatment which they received?

A. I think they are treated with a great deal of consideration. I would like to speak of one instance that I noticed. I don't know who the party was who was the principal actor in the incident, but it was a party not going to Long Island, but Deer Island. It was in the winter time. I should say it was in March, and there had been a northeast storm, lots of snowing and sleet, and the decks had got covered with ice; and when we stopped at Long Island the passengers got off and most of them were able to take care of themselves, but one of them was an old woman who had several bundles in her hands, and she seemed to have a good deal of difficulty in getting over the deck. Well, I am ashamed to say that I didn't offer to give her any assistance myself. I thought she was probably some old drunk, and that she could look out for herself, and that if she met with an accident it only served her right; but I found I had not learned all I ought to have learned in good manners, because one of the deck hands helped her across the deck and up the bridge and on to the wharf; and I must say that I was very much astonished at that, because I hardly expected to see in such a place so much politeness.

Q. Well, what did you notice particularly in regard to Long Island? A. All I can say is that I have passed about among the inmates and among the officials, and it struck me the inmates were kindly treated. I certainly had that opinion, that they were kindly treated.

Q. Now, in all your visits to the hospital building, have you ever noticed any condition of uncleanliness or filthiness about the place?

4. No; the only thing that struck my notice was the color of the linen, and of course any one who sees linen expects to see it perfectly white. The linen was not white, and I examined it a little more closely, and I saw it was because it was not bleached. It was unbleached cotton. It was not dirty or soiled in any way.

Q. I believe you were on the Grand Jury at one time when a visit was made there, weren't you?

A. Yes; I was foreman of the Grand Jury.

Q. When was that?

A.

Two terms ago, I think it was. It was from January to July, the last term.

Q. Did you visit the institution with the other Grand Jurymen?

4. Well, some member of the jury suggested that we make the visit to the institution, and so I wrote to the commissioners and asked for permission, and they said we could go any day except Saturday. We made our own day, and went down, I think, on a Wednesday.

Q. (By Mr. RILEY.) That is, you thought somebody down there should be indicted ?

A. Sir?

Q. You thought somebody down there should be indicted?

A. No. A member of the jury simply said it was the right of the Grand Jury to know what was going on, and that we ought to see the institution.

Q. You suspected something?

A. Nobody said anything of that kind.

The CHAIRMAN. Perhaps it would be well for Mr. Riley to wait until the direct examination is concluded.

Q. (By Mr. REED.) It was not you that suggested a visit, as Brother Riley insinuated by his remarks ?

A. No, sir. I happened simply to know the Commissioners and said I felt sure we would have no difficulty in being admitted.

Q. Then his assumption that you thought somebody ought to be indicted was purely an assumption?

A. Most certainly. No member of the jury, so far as I know, had any idea of anything of the kind.

CROSS-EXAMINATION.

Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) Mr. Tudor, you said that in the institution building there was no system of ventilation at all. Did that apply to the whole building?

A.

4. Practically. I don't consider depending upon windows a system of ventilation.

Q. You don't consider that any system of ventilation at all?

A. No.

Q. Why not?

J. Because you cannot keep a movement of air without a supply. There has got to be a circulation

time; and the one equals the other.

a supply and an exhaust at the same

Q. And opening windows would not be a substitute at all?

A. No; and especially not there, because the people there are a class who have a superstition against an open window.

Q. And does the number of the people in the building have something to do with it, also?

A. Yes.

Q. That is, some five or six hundred people in there would make a difference?

1. It would make a difference, and then the height of the stories makes another difference. The stories there are very low, so that the cubic space for each occupant is not suflicient.

Q. What becomes of the bad air down below?

d. I don't know.

Q.

Does it go up?

, It may go up, and it may go down.

Q. Well, it cannot go out?

4. No. It stays there and gets worse.

Q. And how long has this system of ventilation in the institution existed, or this lack of system?