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Mr. RILEY. — Independence is a bad thing.

Ald. FOTTLER. — Especially in politics.

2. (By Mr. RILEY.) Now, doctor, you believed what you heard, or you didn't?

A. Mrs. Dacey might have had a perfect right to be in the room.

Mr. RILEY. No, answer my question - yes or no.

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Ald. LEE. Now, Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that we have gone on in this way long enough. I want to say that if there is any one thing that I regret during this whole investigation it is the dragging of that lady's name in here, dragging her through the mud, and smirching her good name and character. Any man who knows Mrs. Dacey knows that she is as honest a woman as ever lived on earth. Now, Mr. Riley is dragging her name in here again, and I don't believe in it. I object to any further examination upon that point. Let the committee determine as to the truth of that statement from the testimony which is now before them. It may be that Mrs. Whitney may have said so to Dr. Cogswell to injure her. It may be that there was some other motive. It may be that that motive was against McCaffrey. It may be that; but, Mr. Chairman, in the name of God, don't again drag that honest woman's name in the mud here, as it has been dragged in before; and I am going to ask before this investigation closes that that may be stricken from these records. It is unfair to the lady, who is not here to answer for herself; and I feel satisfied and know that Mr. Riley don't desire it. He don't want it. Dr. Cogswell says he cannot answer the question as it has been put to him by Mr. Riley, and that he wants to explain. Now, if there is any explanation to make, let us go into executive session and keep it out of the records here. Now, Mr. Chairman, I believe enough has been said about that question. When we come to consider these things, we will take it into consideration and give it whatever weight we think it is entitled to. I trust that Mr. Riley will not press that question and again have that good woman's name dragged in here and placed in these records any more.

Mr. RILEY. - Shake not thy gory locks at me, but rather at the witness.

Q. (By Mr. RILEY.) Mr. Witness, haven't you observed, haven't you all along understood, that I didn't mention any lady's name ? Will you answer?

4. I haven't observed either one way or the other.

Q. Did I mention any lady's name since I began to examine you? 1. I don't think you did.

Q. Why did you repeat the lady's name here and add insult to injury?

1. If I didn't repeat the lady's name, Mr. Riley, the explanation that I gave might have applied to anybody.

Q. You thought you were doing a manly thing to repeat the name, did you?

4. Why, certainly, if I am going to explain anything

Q. You have answered the question.

A. (Continuing) - I must tell who it refers to.

Q. You have answered it. Now, then, did you believe what was told you in reference to that lady?

4. Certainly I did.

Q. You did?

1. Certainly.

Q. That is enough. You have answered my question, and I will leave you just where you leave yourself, so far as this examination is concerned.

4. Well

Mr. RILEY. -- No, sir; you cannot explain now. explain later.

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Ald. LEE. - I am going to ask him to explain now. Explain what you wish to, doctor.

Ald. LEE.

Ald. LEE. Well, I ask that question now.

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Mr. RILEY. Ald. LEE. Mr. RILEY. lawyers on the

Ald. LEE.

Of course, if the committee so vote.

Well, I ask that privilege as a member of this committee. But still, I have enough to do to contend with the other side, without having any addition to their number. Now, I want to ask him to make that explanation; and I don't want you to mention the lady's name.

The CHAIRMAN. The Chair will accord the Alderman that privilege. The WITNESS. - I believed it because there was not any reason why I should disbelieve it. I never looked into the matter, and there wasn't any reason why under certain circumstances she should not have had a perfect right to go in there. We don't know whether she went in there and stayed over two minutes or not. If she was on night work there was no reason why she shouldn't go in and consult Mr. McCaffrey if anything happened.

Q. (By Ald. LEE.) He was your assistant ?


Yes; and she might have gone in to consult him.

2. (By Mr. RILEY.) Now, the Alderman's conduct is all right, and

it leads me to take another step in the same direction. Who gave you the information ?

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Why, he said he believed it to be true.

Well, he wanted to give an explanation. Let him do it
That can easily be done when I get through with him

(No response.)

2. You look at me, but you don't answer.

A. No; I have got done giving names. (Laughter and applause.)

2. But you did give the name the other night?

A. Yes; and you picked me up for repeating it to-night.

2. No-you gave another name the other night, did you not?


In regard to what?

Q. Didn't you mention the name of another woman?

A. No, sir.


Did you hear another woman's name mentioned? 2. Yes, sir.

What was the name you heard mentioned ? A. No, sir.


Q. What was the name you heard mentioned?

4. I am not going to answer that.

Q. Oh, you must.

A. Oh, no.

Q. Oh, yes.

A. Oh, no.



2. Well, if you run this investigation, all right; but we will determine that right now.

A. All right.

2. Will you answer?

A. No, sir.

Q. Why?

Because I don't think it is right. I don't think it is right giving

A. her name.

Q. I know, but the other name is the name of a lady as pure and chaste as any that ever entered under your roof. The one I am speaking about now is a woman of another sort, as you know.

A. I don't, sir.



A. I don't.

Was it a woman who gave you the information?

It seems to me you are drifting a little, Mr. Riley.

Q. It seems to ine that you are. information ?


ings, Mr. Riley?


4. That gave me the information on what?

Q. It seems to me that you have got to the point where you are not going to run the thing.

4. Now, Mr. Riley, there is where you and I differ. I never tried


Haven't we got that information in the proceed

Why it is only to lead up to something else.

Q. (By Mr. RILEY.) Why are you keeping back the other name? A.

I am not.

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Q. Why don't you answer?

A. Because I don't propose to.

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Q. Why didn't you say you didn't propose to answer?

A. I said so before.

Q. Was it anybody in your employ?

(No response.)

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Was it a woman that gave you the

Q. Oh, you must.

A. Oh, no.

Doctor, what is the trouble with you?

A. I was just going to shift my leg up there, so as to rest it on the rung of the chair. (Laughter.)

Q. You are shifting all over?

A. Not a bit.

Mr. PROCTOR. The trouble is you have been trying to pull his other leg, Mr. Riley. (Laughter.)

2. (By Mr. RILEY.) Doctor, was it a woman who told you?

4. Now, there is no use talking. You might as well know it now. I will not answer any of those questions.

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Q. Or else I will ask the committee to strike out all of your testimony, even to the long statement which you made.

4. Perhaps they wouldn't do it if you asked them.

Mr. RILEY. —Perhaps you know about it; but I doubt it.

The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, such questions as it is proper for you to answer the committee will be pleased if you will answer; and the committee will try to protect you from questions which it is not proper to


The WITNESS.— Well, my ground is this, that he got up here— The CHAIRMAN. Well, that we don't care to argue. The last question, I think, that Mr. Riley asked you was if your informer was an employee of yours. Wasn't that your last question?

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Mr. RILEY. - Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. That seems to me to be a proper question, and one to be answered without mentioning any names. Will you answer that question, whether or not your informer was in your employ?

The WITNESS. Now, the informer on what?

Q. (By Mr. RILEY.) Do you lack intelligence in that respect?

A. Well, I should like to be a little clear on that point.

Q. What do you think I have been asking you?


Just what I say. You said we wouldn't mention any names, and therefore we have got to get at it in a roundabout manner.

Q. What do you think the subject-matter was? Don't you know? A. Not since you asked another question. You see, according to my idea, you have drifted off of one subject, and now we have got on to something else. I may be mistaken.

Q. Your idea is not a sound one, not a good one.


Then you will have to explain it to me, so that it may be sound. Q. Why, I asked you in regard to your belief of a certain statement, and you said you believed it. I then asked you for the name of the pary who informed you and gave you the information, and you refused to give that. Now, then, my question is: Was that party in your employ ?

A. If I remember correctly, you asked me about some lady going into his room.


Was that person in your employ?

A. I think he asked me about some other lady going into his room, Mr. Chairman.

Q. I must have an answer. Was that person in your employ?

A. If you mean

Q, I must have an answer to that question. Was the person who gave you the information in your employ?

A. Do you mean by "information "

Q. Well, now, if you please; yes or no. employ ?

A. Well, Mr. Chairman, just a moment.

Mr. RILEY. No, you are trying your old tricks, but they won't do. I insist upon an answer, or else you must refuse to go on at all.

The CHAIRMAN. — It seems plain to the Chair that the question under discussion is, that in your former testimony you made some remarks in relation to a woman; and the question that Mr. Riley puts to you is whether the information that you gained was given to you by a person in your employ?

Mr. PROCTOR. Does the Chairman presume to answer the question of the witness before the witness asks it?

The CHAIRMAN. Well, the Chair is trying to explain the question that Mr. Riley put to him in hopes that it won't be necessary to drag in here the name of an innocent person.

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Mr. PROCTOR. But I understood the witness to appeal to the Chair with some question; and I had assumed that that was a proper thing to do.

Was that person in your

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The CHAIRMAN. If the witness cannot understand now, with the explanation made by the Chair, the Chair is willing to answer any question from the witness.

Mr. PROCTOR. I knew you would be.

Q. (By Mr. RILEY.) Now, was that person in your employ yes

or no?

A. I think, if I understand the chairman correctly, he has allowed me to ask him a question.


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You may.

The WITNESS. If I am to understand by the word "information " that that word refers to a circumstance which I said that a certain party reported to me as having occurred within her knowledge some time last year in relation to two employees on Long Island whose names have been mentioned together by me at a recent hearing — you see, there are a good many things

Mr. RILEY. (Interrupting.) Why don't you ask the question of the chairman and be done with it.


Mr. PROCtor.

The CHAIRMAN. - I think the witness understands the question, from the question which he asks.


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Mr. RILEY. I didn't understand what he asked you.

The WITNESS. On that ground –

Mr. RILEY. No, if you please - I don't care to have your explana


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Ald. LEE.

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that way

Mr. ŘILEY. —No, no, this is not the time to give an explanation. The WITNESS. (Continuing.)—I say that the information was given to me by an employee.

Mr. RILEY. No, sir

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I have.

Go on, Mr. Witness.

Go on, doctor.


The WITNESS. Why, I was answering it.
Mr. RILEY. No, sir; you cannot do it in
about your reasons at all. I want yes or no.
the employ of the city at the time
yes or no?

The WITNESS. Now, at which time?
Now, you ought to be fair with this witness.

Ald. LEE.

Mr. RILEY. This witness is not going to escape me.

I am going

to have an answer to my questions.

Ald. LEE. Well, we are all going to get it, and not drag anybody in the mire, either.

Mr. RILEY. Well, he is going to answer me by yes or no.

Ald. LEE. But he says that he cannot do it that way.


Well, he must.

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(Continuing.) — the word "information" resting

you must answer the question or refuse to do

Ald. LEE. Well, now, Mr. Chairman. I think I have set here and allowed this thing to go on long enough, and so I will try to aid him. Mr. RILEY. Take care that you don't aid him in dragging anybody

in the mire.

Now, Mr. Chairman, I am not dragging anybody in the


Mr. RILEY. - No; I didn't say you were. I say, take care that you don't.

that way. I don't care

Was your informer in

Ald. LEE. Well, I will do what I think just right as a member of this committee, no matter what you say, Mr. Riley. (Applause.) You cannot drive me one inch. Now, Mr. Chairman, the bullyragging that the witness has been receiving from the hands of Mr. Riley is unfair and unjust; and I am somewhat surprised, Mr. Chairman, that we as a committee, and you as chairman, have sat here and allowed it to go on so long. Why don't you ask him if this person who told him that a certain nurse was seen coming from an employee's room was a matron there? That is fair. I don't know what Mr. Riley is trying to get out of the witness, but if he wants to get something out of him that is proper and to lead him up to something else, why, all right; but I won't sit here and allow him to cast any reflections upon me as a member of this committee. I have stood I have stood it quite long enough, and I am not going to stand it again. I say again that I don't care any more for Mr. Riley than I do for anybody else who walks into this room. Now, I will ask the privilege of asking the witness a question as a member of this committee. I want to ask you if you testified here that you were informed by one of your assistants down there that some one of your officers was seen going into a nurse's room?

The WITNESS. No, sir that the nurse was seen coming out of the employee's room.

Q. (By Ald. LEE.) Now, let me ask you if it was one of the matrons then down there that gave you that information ?

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