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Q. You have no memory at all of that case ?
A. No, sir; I don't think I ever did.
Q. Did you say in your testimony some little time ago that the inmates on Long Island were supplied with about a pound of meat a day? A. I don't remember of ever having said anything of the kind.
Q. What did you say with reference to that?
A. I don't think I have ever mentioned here how much meat the inmates have.
Q. Didn't you say something about the quantity of food they received?
A. Yes, sir, I did. I said that in three months' time they had received in the neighborhood of 200 pounds of solid food.
Q. Yes. You didn't say anything about the kind of meat they received every day?
A. I didn't specify; no, sir.
Q. And you didn't mean to have the committee understand that they received on the average about a pound of meat a day?
A. No, sir; because it is not intended they should.
Q. No, probably not half a pound?
A. Yes, sir; they do.
On the days that they get meat I think they average a half a pound of meat—perhaps not quite so much as that.
Q. Now, you have about 630 inmates there, have you not ?
Q. How many?
A. Oh, all told, about 612 - no. Well, let it go at 612.
Q. The figures I get are 630.
A. If I remember correctly, I wouldn't want to be absolute, but I think it was 622 inmates yesterday.
Q. And you had 630 last week I understand. Now, you also had on Long Island 130 prisoners from Deer Island during last week, didn't you?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. How many did you have?
Q. You have had as many as 130 over there, haven't you?
A. I have had, I think, 168. At that time I had about 400 inmates.
Q. And last week you had fifty-four prisoners from Deer Island? A. Between fifty and sixty.
Q. Who orders them over?
Q. You simply board them while they are there?
A. I say I had nothing to do with it excepting that I signify how many men I would like; that is all.
Q. Then you tell them how many prisoners you want brought over? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Why do you do that?
A. Because it is left to my judgment how many we need.
Q. Well, don't you know, as a citizen of our Commonwealth, that persons sent down to Deer Island on specified sentences are sent by the Courts, and sent there for crime; to be sure trivial crimes, but still for crime? You know that, don't you?
A. I know that they are sent to Deer Island for petty offences.
Q. Yes, and that the sentence is to be served on Deer Island. You know that also, don't you?
A. No, sir, I don't.
Q. You think that when a person is sentenced, for instance, to six months' imprisonment at Deer Island, that a part of that imprisonment is to be undergone at Long Island?
A. I don't know anything about it, Mr. Riley.
Q. Well, but you have the intelligence of the ordinary citizen, haven't you?
A. Well, it is fair to presume so.
Q. Well, you know you have, and we know you have more. Now, do you think you have any right to keep on Long Island prisoners sentenced to Deer Island? Do you really think that?
A. I don't know anything about it, Mr. Riley. I am not a lawyer, and if it wasn't right I don't suppose it would be done.
Q. Well, many things not right are done, and will be done, I am afraid. What I want to know is why you should have prisoners on Long Island and what you are doing with them?
A. Well, we are getting a good deal of work out of them?
Q. Yes, but the Courts didn't send them to you?
A. I don't know anything about why they are sent there, as to the right or legality of it in any way, shape, or manner.
Well, who sends them there?
A. Icouldn't tell you whether the superintendent or the Commissioners. I presume like enough the Commissioners, and I think it is a fact that the Commissioners, tell the superintendent of Deer Island to send the prisoners over to Long Island.
Q. By whom do you send your orders when you want prisoners ? A. I simply tell the officer who has charge of them on Long Island that we either want so many more or so many less from day to day. Q. Yes, and he brings them over in the morning?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And they are sent back at night?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And while they are on Long Island they are boarded in the institution there?
A. Yes, sir.
And in the same hall with the paupers?
A. They are not boarded wiht the paupers, but they are boarded in the same hall that the paupers eat in; yes, sir.
Eat at the same tables?
A. That have been used by the paupers; yes, sir.
Q. Yes, and served with the same food and same dishes?
A. Yes, sir.
In other words, they are brought in contact with the paupers? A. To a certain extent; yes.
Q. What do you mean by qualifying it in that way? I am brought in contact with you now, you might say, to a certain extent, but it is extent enough. They are brought in contact with the paupers. Now, that is true, isn't it?
A. Why, they are brought in contact with the paupers more or less;
Q. Now, do you really think that it is right to have the unfortunate poor who have committed no crime thrown in contact with prisoners who have committed crime?
A. Well, I have often thought of that, and it seems to me that there is very little trouble likely to arise from it, because I fail to see where, if a man comes down to us as a pauper and stays a month or two and goes up town and gets arrested and sent over to Deer Isiand and then comes back the next day as a prisoner at work, I don't see why he contaminated the paupers any more when he comes as a prisoner from Deer Island than he would if he was a pauper on Long Island.
Q. Yes, but don't you see, doctor, as an intelligent man, that you are
begging the question? Do you mean to tell this committee that all the paupers on Long Island are persons who at other times have been on Deer Island as convicts?
A. No, sir, I do not.
Q. Then you have a great many innocent people on Long Island, haven't you
A. We have more that are not, and we have got a good many that
Q. Answer my question.
I did, didn't I, I say, we have a good many that are.
Q. Now, that isn't an answer to my question. You try to mix matters and I try to keep them apart. Haven't you a great many innocent paupers on Long Isiand?
A. Certainly, I think we have.
Q. Yes. Why should they be thrown in contact with prisoners on Deer Island ?
A. I don't think that they necessarily are thrown in contact with them.
Q. No, I think that they are unnecessarily thrown in contact with them. Why should that be so?
A. I can't see any harm in it, Mr. Riley.
Q. You think that your judgment is wiser than the judgment of the law, do you?
Of the what?
Q. Of the law,
I don't know what the law is in that respect.
Well, you know the law sent those parties down to Deer Island, don't you?
Q. You know that under our law here and under the working of our charity system, the innocent paupers were sent down to Long Island? You know that, don't you?
Q. And you know the obvious intent was to keep the two parts apart?
A. I don't think so.
You think the intent of our law, and the intent of our charitable institutions, is to throw criminals and paupers together?
Q. Well, but isn't that what you have been doing?
Q. No, isn't that what you have been doing?
A. Not to any harmful extent, I don't think.
Q. Well, you qualify that. You say you don't think it is to any harmful extent, but harm or no harm, that is what you have been doing, isn't it?
A. As I have stated here two or three times, Mr. Riley, the paupers and the prisoners are together more or less.
Q. Yes, I say Now, how long has that been going on.
A. Ever since I have been there.
Q. That is, ever since you have been on Long Island the prisoners have been brought over there and thrown in contact with paupers ?
A. Well, I perhaps should not have said “ever since," because in the winter months they were not sent there, but from early in the spring until early in the winter, they are.
Q. Yes. With few exceptions it is going on all the time?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And notwithstanding the disclosures made in this investigation it is going on now to as great an extent as ever ?
Q. In other words, no attention has been paid to the disclosures made here.
A. I don't think there has. Of course, if they thought they had been doing wrong, I presume they would have stopped long ago. And if they thought they were doing right this investigation would not stop them from doing what they thought was right.
Q. Now, one other thing. You remember speaking the other night about sending up three bodies for anatomical purposes. You remember that incident, don't you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, before sending a body to town for that purpose, what have you to do?
A. I, under ordinary circumstances, whenever there is a body that can be used for anatomical purposes, send a notification to that effect to the Commissioners of Public Institutions.
Q. Then what do you get?
A. We get a letter to send them up.
Q. Well, you get a permit from some source or other, don't you?
I have got nothing to do with that, the getting of the permit.
The secretary of the Board.
Q. The secretary of the Board gets a permit?
Q. Does he notify you that the permit has been granted by the Board of Health?
Well, you remember the sending up of Cuddy's body, don't
A. Yes, sir.
Q. The other night you said three bodies were sent up at that time? A. Yes, sir.
Q. The second body was that of Wallace?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the third body was that of a woman named McCarthy?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You mean to say, do you, that the secretary of the Board of Health told you to send up three bodies?
A. No, sir.
Q. He told you to send up the three bodies. Those three?
A. No, sir. I would like to explain that.
Q. No, there is plenty of time for explanation, but don't get me confused whatever else you may do. He sent you a notice to send up three bodies, did he?
Q. So that there wasn't much chance to misconstrue it?
A. There was, or I shouldn't have misconstrued it.
Q. Well, but we will see whether there was any cause for that misconstruction if you will produce the notice. Have you got the notice?
Very well, you can produce it at any time?
A. Yes, sir; I presume so.
Q. It is on the files of course. What does it say?
A. As near as I remember it, it says, the purport of it was, "I shall send for the bodies of Alexander Wallace, Edward Cuddy and Mary McCarthy to-morrow.”
Q. Who signed that?
Q. General Donohoe; very well. Was that the only notification you got?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, your solemn oath is, that in response to that written notification, specifying the three bodies, giving the names of each, that in response to that you sent up those three bodies?
Q. If you should find that the notification called but for two bodies, what would you say?
A. I know it doesn't.
Q. No, but if you should find that, what would you say then?
A. Why, it isn't a supposable case.
Q. Yes, it is. Oh, I have known more extreme things supposable — oh, my, yes! What would you say then?
If the notice called for but two?
Q. Yes. What would you say?
I shouldn't say anything.
Q. But you would have to give some explanation as to the sending up of the third body, wouldn't you? Now, wouldn't you?
A. If it called for but two and I sent three I certainly should have to give some reason for sending up the third body.
Q. Yes. Well, now, we happen to know, or we think we know, that it called for but two.
A. Yes; you thought you knew a good many things, but you have found out you didn't.
The CHAIRMAN. The witness will please answer Mr. Riley's question.
Mr. RILEY. That is what makes us wiser. Now, if you please.
A. I know that it called for three.
Q. Do you think that if you should inspect the books of the Board of Health you should find permits for three bodies?
A. I don't know anything about that, you know.
Q. You were connected with the Board of Health some time they tell me, weren't you?
A. I was; yes, sir.
Q. You know something about the way they do business up there, don't you?
A. Not to any great extent; no, sir.
Q. Well, you know enough about the Board of Health to know that its records are kept correctly, don't you?
With the possibility of human error liable to err.
that is all. Any man is
send up a body for the
Q. Now, when you are called upon to purpose designated you send it up in a box, don't you?