A. Certainly, it has nothing to do with me. with it. I am only superintendent down there. orders of the Commissioners as near as I can. I don't know what they are going to do with it. deliver it to the friends for all I know.

I have nothing to do I try to carry out the If they send for a body They may be going to

Q. I asked you about a boy some time ago and you said you didn't remember him. Perhaps I may refresh your memory. I mean the boy who was taken out of the Gut, who came near being drowned?

A. I don't think I was there at the time. I might have been, but that doesn't refresh my memory.

Q. You have no memory. I am told that you attended to the boy when he was brought to the island by the fishermen, or somebody. You don't remember him, do you?

A. No, sir, I do not.

Q. Have you memory of attending any boy whose body was pretty well covered with bruises, wounds, and stripes?

A. No, sir.

Q. Have you attended any boy whose body had wounds and bruises on it?

A. Not to my remembrance.

Q. Have no remembrance of it?

A. No, sir

nothing of that kind; no, sir.

Q. One other question and then I shall end. You know Erskine, don't you?

A. Erskine; yes, sir.

Q. He was on Deer Island during a part of the time you were there? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was there when you left, was he not? At all events, he was there during the Mayor's investigation?

A. I don't think he was there when I left.

Q. He was there during the Mayor's investigation, wasn't he?

A. I don't know as to that; no, sir.

Q. Well, he was there until a little time before, wasn't he?

A. The only thing I can say about Mr. Erskine is this, Mr. Riley. That he, I think, was there until a short time previons to my leaving there. I think that he left the island before I did. When he came don't know.

Q. Well, now, you knew him pretty well, didn't you?

1

A. I knew him fairly well, just the same as I knew a good many officers down there.

Q. You knew he was a good officer, didn't you?

A. In my judgment I thought he was a good officer.

Q. Yes, and you spoke to him about making him your deputy on

Long Island, didn't you?

A. Yes, sir, I did.

Q. You thought of doing that?

A. I had it in mind; yes, sir.

Q.

(By Mr. BRANDEIS.) Dr. Cogswell, do you have burial services

for the dead at Long Island?

A. Once in a awhile, but not always.

Q. How many have you had ?

A.

I couldn't say, sir

I don't think very many.

Q. When did you have the first ?

A. I couldn't tell that, sir.

Q. It was after this investigation began, wasn't it?

A. I couldn't tell that.

Q. Wasn't it in May ?

A. I don't know, sir.

Q. What is your best recollection ?

A.

I couldn't tell you that. I don't remember when the first was. I

don't remember how many we have had. I think we have had perhaps three or four. That is all we have had. Whenever, as they sometimes have I remember one or two instances where they have requested something of the kind — it has been held. It never has been held unless some wish has been expressed that it be held. Ordinarily, burial services are not held.

Q. Aren't you of the opinion that burial services would tend somewhat to the up-lifting of the people there, the living?

A. I think it possibly would be a good thing; certainly wouldn't be a bad thing.

Q. Well, wouldn't you recommend introducing that as as a part of that general reform of the individual which we agree should be undertaken ?

A. I think it might be a good idea to have something of the kind some simple service.

Q. Yes. That was suggested, wasn't it, by the visitors, some of them ?

A. I think it was. I certainly should not object to anything of that

kind.

Q. Have you discussed the matter with any of the Commissioners? No, sir.

A.

Q. Have they ever made any suggestions to you in regard to it?
A. Not to my remembrance.

Q. Doctor, there is only one other question. It appeared from your testimony here that, upon the simple statement that a night nurse was seen coming at the hour of 12 to 1 at night from the room of the deputy superintendent, the statement being made to you by a woman who had been, several times to your knowledge, committed to Deer Island, you charged a lady of unblemished character, at a public hearing, needlessly, with the greatest offence which society knows in women. It also appears from the testimony here that the members of the Board of Visitors, after an investigation covering several weeks and inquiry made from a large number of officers, ex-officers, and inmates of the institution, presented in the performance of a solemn public duty charges against the administration of Long Island, reflecting upon the character merely of the administration and not upon the private character of an individual. Now, I ask you, doctor, to compare the conduct of yourself in making the one charge, which is purely private in its nature, needlessly here, without investigation and without seeking support from any other witnesses, and the conduct of the Board of Visitors in making that investigation, covering that long period and from a large number of people and I ask you, after making that comparison to tell this Board, the Aldermen, whether the Board of Visitors or you in your statements should more commend themselves to the judgment of the Aldermen ? Mr. REED. That is an entirely improper question, Mr. Chairman. The committee should pass upon the evidence rather than the witness. The CHAIRMAN. The witness may answer that question if he chooses.

The WITNESS.- Mr. Brandeis has started out with entirely false premises, as you will see when you come to read over my testimony. I did not make any charge myself of any kind or description against anybody. I merely said, or intended to convey the impression, that such a thing had occurred. In reading over the written testimony I see that my words would, could, and probably did convey an impression entirely foreign to what I intended that they should be, and if my memory serves me at all I said so at the last meeting - which was that the fact had been reported to me it was reported to me by a person who had no object in telling an untruth, whom I believed to be trustworthy. I do not believe because a person becomes intoxicated occasionally they are

entirely unqualified for telling the truth. It was not done in a willing manner the mentioning of the name of a lady of unblemished character it was done by the express command of this committee after my refusal and at the earnest solicitation of counsel, Mr. Brandeis not by reason of any willingness on my part to do it.

Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) Now, Dr. Cogswell, you say that by what you stated there you did not intend to charge this offence. I will ask you whether you did not allege that fact as a reason for the change of that good opinion which you had formed of your former deputy, and whom you had recommended yourself to an important public trust? Did you not allege this very fact which you are now trying to color differently as a reason why you changed the good opinion which you had of that man?

A. It was one of at least two reasons that I gave.

Q. Yes, and if you gave it as a reason, you gave it because, as you stated it then, you wished to convey to this committee the impression that that offence had been committed. Is not that the fact- yes or no? Mr. PROCTOR. Pardon me. He is not bound to answer that, except

as he deems best.

The WITNESS. I think I went into this matter last night with Mr. Riley to all the extent that I want to go into it.

Mr. BRANDEis. I should think perhaps more, because the more you say of it the less good it can reflect upon yourself.

Mr. PROCTOR. Pardon me. You are asking the questions and you are testifying yourself, and you ought to be contented with one or the

other.

Mr. BRANDEIS.

you will keep still.

Mr. PROCTOR.

know.

Mr. BRANDEIS.

Yes, and I will be amply content with either one if

I will keep still when it pleases me to do so, you

And I will speak when it pleases me.

Mr. PROCTOR-If you are going to testify I will want to put you under cross-examination.

Mr. BRANDEIS. — I would be delighted to be cross-examined by so intelligent a man as you.

Mr. PROCTOR, Do you want to go on now?

Mr. BRANDEIS.—If I might be put on as a witness I would be delighted to be examined. I think I know something about the institu

tions at present.

The CHAIRMAN.

question.

We will save time if yon will proceed with the

The stenographer repeated the last question and answer.

Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) That is all the answer which you have to give, doctor, to the question which I put ?

That is all I have to ask you.

Mr. PROCTOR. It is the first time you have been satisfied for a good while, Brother Brandeis.

Mr. BRANDEIS. Yes, sir; I have been much satisfied with everything but your interruptions.

Mr. PROCTOR. Then I am glad to have interrupted you.

Mr. BRANDEIS. The only trouble is that it was discourteous, and I don't expect that from you.

Mr. PROCTOR.

Thank you.

REDIRECT-EXAMINATION.

Q. (By Mr. REED.) Doctor Cogswell, at a former hearing you were asked this question by Mr. Brandeis: "Well, who was the nurse that this woman said he had in his room ?" And you answered. "I don't think I am called upon to state that." Mr. Brandeis then said, “I think

เ

"It

you are." You answered: She isn't there now. I couldn't say." He then asked you: "I think you should, as long as you have made a statement here letting that part of it out?" You answered: 'I don't think the committee would ask for anything of that kind.” Mr. Curtis then said, “What purpose will it serve? Mr. Brandeis said: will serve this pupose - to show that this witness comes and makes statements that are not true, and whenever we begin following them up, you say,Stop.'" Mr. Reed says: That is your opinion." Mr. Brandeis replied: It is my opinion. of course." Mr. Reed then said, You are entitled to it." Mr. Curtis then said: He has given the name of the informant, and what purpose would the giving of the name of woman serve except to gratify idle curiosity? He has stated the name of his informant." Mr. Braudeis then said: And I propose to know in regard to this story he has stated." Mr. Curtis said: All you have to do is to get Mrs. Whitney here." Mr. Prandeis replied : · I shouldn't trust Mrs. Whitney, from what has been testified to about her. I would like the witness to answer this question." Mr. Curtis said: "I object to dragging this in. I think the name of the woman should not be stated here." The chairman then said: "The Chair rules that the question may be answered."

เเ

Mr. BRANDeis.

And the answering of that question shows the untruth of the witness' statement and reflected upon his whole testimony.

The WITNESS.

Mr. BRANDeis.

Not a bit of it.

That is what it shows and you have got to follow him up, cost what it will, to show how untrue his testimony is. Mr. REED. Will you please conduct yourself as a gentleman, Mr. Brandeis?

Q. Then, doctor, in reply to that reply, to that command, or ruling of the Chair, you then stated the lady's name. I want to ask you if I have called attention to the circumstances under which you mentioned the name of the lads about which so much has been said here by Mr. Riley and Mr. Brandeis at this hearing and the one immediately proceeding this, and if that is the only time that you have stated that name here to the best of your recollection ?

Q. You have been asked in regard to having prisoners from Deer Island at work on Long Island. Have you done anything as superintendent there in opposition to the opinion of the Corporation Counsel which was given to the Commissioners to the effect that it was proper to take prisoners from Deer Island to Long Island or any other farm owned by the city, so long as they were in charge of officers of the Deer Island institution and were returned to that institution in charge of those officers? Have you ever violated that opinion or gone contrary to it ?

A. No, sir; I don't think I have.

Mr. RILEY. You probably never read it, did you, doctor?

Mr. REED. — I didn't ask him that and he is not obliged to answer your questions now. Probably it was given so long ago that he didn't have to read it.

The WITNESS.

me another.

He asked me one question, Mr. Riley, and you asked

Q. (By REED.) Is there anything further that you care to state to the committee, doctor, before you leave the stand?

A. No, sir; I don't think there is.

Q. Wasn't there something in regard to the medical staff at the hospital, the organization, that you wanted to make clear?

A. Well, it doesn't seem to committee perhaps understands medical staff at Long Isiand. within a very few days, as

me necessary at this time. The

the exact organization of the When we first started there, or soon as we could get straightened

а

out, the organization consisted of myself as physician, Dr. Dever as first assistant, and Dr. Sullivan as second assistant. Dr. Dever as first assistant and Dr. Sullivan as second did the actual practising in the hospital, Dr. Dever having charge of the female ward, Dr. Sullivan of the male ward, and Dr. Dever having the immediate charge of all the details of the hospital on both sides. He was responsible for the records outside of the immediate male records of the hospital and he was also responsible for the drugs in the dispensary, the cooking of the food and serving of it in a proper manner, and to notify me of any trouble or mistakes or anything that occurred. In the summertime, when it was possible to get an interne from among the young men just out of the Medical School, we had one. In the fall, the 15th of November, Dr. Dever resigned and Dr. Parker then assumed his duties and had as second assistant Dr. Leach. That went on until this fall, when we got a first assistant physician who was over both Dr. Leach and Dr. Parker. He was responsible then for what Dr. Dever and Dr. Parker had been originally responsible for, and it has always been our custom to have at least two assistant physicians. The first assistant was responsible to me for the immediate details of hospital management. The work was divided between the two from a medical standpoint last spring, and I, as I said in my statement, thought it would be best for me and perhaps for the hospital if I assumed more immediate and active management and treatment, which I did. I occupied what would be the position of a visiting physician to one of the city hospitals, as far as the medical treatment of patients was concerned. The other duties were carried on then by the two assistants — one Dr. Ayer, who came as first assistant over Dr. Leach and Dr. Parker. When he came he was responsible for all of what we call the "emergency treatment." From questions that have been put here they have tried to convey the impression that I have prohibited the physicians down there from prescribing diet or medicines. That is not so. The only thing which has been prohibited to them is the changing of any regular routine treatment or any regular routine diet of a patient in the hospital. They do all of the emergency prescribing; they do all of the prescribing for nights; they have the privilege of taking any case that may be in the hospital that may be of exceptional interest and treating it to suit themselves, both in medicine and diet. This action prohibiting them from changing routine treatment was done because one of the doctors there insisted on changing treatment that I had given without any notification to myself gave medicines and drugs to patients that I considered injurious, and put a stop to that. But in as far as we are able, the organization of the hospital has really been always since I have been there on the lines suggested by the Board of Visitors. I never took any exception to the proposition as to the organization of the hospital. That is one of their propositions. I never approved of a regular visiting physician from the city, because I never thought it was necessary. As to the board of consulting physicians and surgeons, I certainly should not object to that. But the effect is practically the same now, because I have the privilege of calling any physician or surgeon that I may desire at any time in consultation. The Commissioners are perfectly willing to pay for him, which they would have to do if we had a board of consultants which amounted to anything. A board of consulting physicians and surgeons are of no practical benefit to a hospital unless they are men of experience and reputation, and men of that class I don't think would be willing to give their time and advice gratuitously. If they were, so much the better. I shouldn't object in any way to a board of consulting physicians and surgeons, and I never have. But as far as the organization of the hospital is concerned, as I have said, it is carried out with one man directly responsible to, me for certain