things and the other man responsible to him for certain things, and to me for well defined duties.

Q. What was the fact, doctor, about that nurse whom they say was discharged from the City Hospital? Were you informed by Dr. Rowe that that nurse had been discharged before you employed him?

A. Of course I have no means of knowing. Perhaps Mr. Brandeis has been entirely hypothetical in this question and did not refer to anybody. If at any time he puts in testimony and names any persons I think possibly we may be able to do a little something in regard to throwing light on the subject.

Q. Then you don't call to mind?

A. I will say this much, that I never hired a nurse of any kind or description after Dr. Rowe told me that he or she had been discharged. Q. Since you have been at Long Island have you ever had a case there that called for the services of a physician or surgeon other than the physicians and surgeons whom you have had there, and been denied the right to employ such outside assistance?

A. I never have applied for any assistance in any way, shape, or manner, and I never considered that it was necessary, but I have always understood that at any time if I desired any one I had the privilege of calling on them.

Q. I think that is all unless you have something further to state. Q. (By the CHAIRMAN.) Dr. Cogswell, I understood you to say in regard to that nurse who was discharged, whom you hired, that you had no means of knowing. I understand that you mean by that that you had no means of knowing that he had been discharged or what he had been discharged for?

A. Oh, I said I never had hired a nurse after Dr. Rowe had told me that he or she had been discharged from the City Hospital.

Q. I thought I understood you to say you had no means of knowing?

A. Oh, no, no, sir. I could have telephoned right up.

Mr. REED. He said, Mr. Chairman, that he had no means of knowing what person Mr. Brandeis referred to. His question was hypothet

ical.

The WITNESS. I said his question was hypothetical and might have been purely hypothetical, without his having anybody in mind, that if he at any time should put in any evidence that such was the case and mention any names I thought we could do something towards disproving anything of the kind ever having happened.

Mr. BRANDeis. We will give you the opportunity.

The WITNESS. Well, I can do it.

Q. (By Ald. LEE.) I understand you to say, doctor, that the prisoners that were sent from Deer Island to work at Long Island were never kept on Long Island over night?

A. If you had asked me that question the first week I should have said, "Never to my knowledge," but night before last it was so foggy that the boat couldn't run and we had to keep all the prisoners, the mechanics and everybody we had on the island, on Long Island. Q. Well, up to that time.

A. Up to that time it had never been done, to my knowledge,

Q. Well, now, leaving that one question out, since you have been superintendent when prisoners have been sent from Deer Island to Long Island for 'employment, over there to work, how many meals do you serve to them during the time they are on your island?

A.

Just the dinner.

Q. Now, how many inmates, paupers, can you seat in your male dining-room at one time?

A. About 250.

Q. Now, has there been any time when the prisoners from Deer

Island were at work on Long Island that they have been in the same dining-room, eating their meals with the inmates?

A. When I first went there it was the custom, sometimes, if there was a second table of inmates, to have the prisoners eat on the other side of the dining-room. There was always a table, an empty table, separating them, and generally two empty tables; but after awhile it seemed to us that it wasn't a good custom. We thought that we had better keep them separate as to that if we could, so that since then, since a year ago last summer, I don't know of any time when the inmates and prisoners have eaten together in the same dining-hall. Q. That is, for a year?

A. About a year and a half.

Q. When you went there you found the custom was to allow them to go in and sit in one part of the room if there was a second table ? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Well, now, are the inmates at Long Island, any of them, employed at work the same as the prisoners?

A. No, sir.

Q. They are separate?

A. Yes, sir. Well, sometimes a prisoner might come in contact with them. They might be driving a team, a prisoner might drive a team that the inmates were shoveling coal in. If we happened to be short of teamsters one out of four might be a prisoner, but they are not allowed to work on the same work together, no, sir.

Q. Nor to mingle in an indiscriminate way?

A. No, sir; nor to mingle.

RECROSS-EXAMINATION.

Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) Doctor, do you go into the dining-room every day? Mr. Galvin said he always went in every day the time the meals were served. Is that your practice, also?

A. No, sir.

Q. How often do you go?

A. Very frequently.

Q. What do you mean by that

how often in a week?

A. Well, a good many times. I might say about half the time that I would be there when they were eating dinner. I might say that nearly every day when on the island I am either there when the dinner is served, while they are eating, or while it is in preparation. There is hardly a meal, a dinner, served that I don't see it at some time.

Q. Then how does your practice differ from that described by Mr. Galvin ?

A. As I understand it Mr. Galvin said he was in the dining-room while they were eating. I may have misunderstood him.

Q. Every day?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you are there only every other day?

A. I don't think I am there any oftener than that- not while they are eating; no, sir. I never considered it necessary. If I had I should have done so. The deputy that is one of his duties, to run the meals

in and be there and see that order is maintained and that everything is served satisfactorily. I have never considered that it was essential that both of us should be there at the same time.

Q. And when you go in there how long are you there?

A. Some times I am there two or three minutes, some times I am there all through the meal.

Q. Pass through the room, do you?

A. Sometimes I pass through and sometimes I stand at the door. Most generally I stand at the door.

Q. Which meal is it that you attend?

A.

Dinner mostly. Suppers and breakfasts are always the same. There is no great necessity for looking after them.

Q.

(By Mr. RILEY.) Only one thing, doctor

oners sleep, those kept there the other night?

A.

where did the pris

In the dining-room. That is the only place we have. Q. That is, brought cots or beds into the dining-room? Yes, sir.

A.

Q.

A.

Didn't put them into the dormitories of the paupers?
No, sir; they were separated by a floor from the paupers.

FRANCIS A. HARRIS, M.D. - Sworn.

(By Mr. REED.) Your name is Francis A. Harris?
It is.

You are a practising physician in Boston?

I am.
You are a graduate of Harvard College, doctor?

I am.

And of the Harvard Medical School?

I am.

Q. What year were you graduated from the Harvard Medical School? A. '72.

Q. And you have devoted your time to your profession since that

date?

A.

I have.

Q. You are medical examiner for the County of Suffolk, are you not? I am one of them.

Q. And you have held that office how long?

A. Since its creation.

Q. What year was that?

A.

'77.

Q. Was that the time of the abolition of the office of Coroner?
A. It was.

Q. Then from the beginning you have held this office of medical examiner ?

A. Yes.

Q. What opportunities have you had, doctor, for observation of hospitals in this country and others?

A. I was a pupil at the Massachusetts General Hospital — externe, as it is called now for six months, and for nearly a year as an interne; and I was house officer at the Massachusetts Hospital. I spent a year in Vienna, and I was there daily, with the exception of Sundays, in the great general hospital of the city of Vienna. I have seen other and similar hospitals here and in other cities.

Q. Have you ever visited the hospital at Long Island, Home for Paupers ?

A. I have.

Q. Do you remember when you made your first visit to the hospital? A. Oh, no the present hospital?

Q. Yes.

A. It was a very long time ago. It was, I think, in March after this investigaion began.

Q. That would be last March?

A. Yes that is the present new hospital I am speaking of. I was through the hospital while it was in process of construction, but I should presume that you refer to the fact of a visit after it was in operation. Q. You understand me right, doctor?

A. Yes. You must understand that I have had occasion to go to all the islands in the past eighteen years at different times in an official

capacity, but my answer pertains to this simple question of this new hospital.

Q. You were on the island during the erection of the building, I understand you now?

A. Yes.

Q. And since the completion of the building and its opening as a hospital you have been there?

A. Yes; I have been there twice.

Q. You say that you first visited the hospital in March?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, did you make a tour through the wards in that time?
A. I did.

Q. And did you observe the character of the diseases which were being treated there?

A. I did.

Q. And what do you say as to their character? What was the general character of the diseases?

A. Oh, they were all chronic cases, with a single exception, and that wasn't an inmate. They were largely of a specific character, outside of maternity wards, where the cases of childbirth were, and people of very advanced life suffering from no acute troubles. The only acute case I saw there was a case of pneumonia in one of the officers of the institution.

Q. That was the deputy, was it not?

A. I don't remember the man's name. He was very ill at the time. It was an acute case and he was in a room by himself.

Q. There was a ward devoted almost entirely to specific diseases in the women's side, was there not?

A. Yes.

Q. And across the corridor from that ward was the maternity ward? A. Well, the maternity ward was farther up this way. I should say that that being the ward where the large number of female specific cases was the maternity ward would not correspond to that, according to my recollection.

Q. What was the appearance of the hospital as to cleanliness?

Q. Did you make any examination of the beds, the beds and bedding? A. I did. I did. I examined the mattresses the woven-wire mattresses and the sheets and pillowcases, etc. They were all neat and clean. They were in a very much better condition than they are in the general hospital in Vienna.

Q. Were you shown any of the plumbing arrangements, such as bath-tubs, water-closets, etc.?

A. I was.

Q. And do you remember how they were located?

A. No, I can't give the geography now, it is so long ago. They were easy of access and they apparently were very privately appointed. Q. You don't remember of seeing any of the bath tubs in the open wards, do you?

A. No.

Q. They were in separate rooms, were they not?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you go into the sun-room?

A. Yes, sir; a place out on the southerly side of the hospital looking out towards Rainsford Island, I think it is a large room with a great number of windows where a great many sat during the day, I was told. Q. Did you see any of the food that was served to the patients? A. I didn't see any of the food that was served in the hospital. The food that I saw was the food that was cooked in the institution building, so-called, unless it came from the same place.

Oh, I did

Q. Then you visited the institution building at that time? A. Yes, sir; and that is where I saw what food I did see. see some coffee and tea and other things in the hospital, but food proper I only saw in the institution building.

Q. Did you visit the hospital kitchen the first time you were there? I don't remember that I did.

A.

Q.

Did you the second time?

A.

I think I did. I am uncertain about that. My memory is chiefly on the institution kitchen.

Q. Well, then, you visited the institution kitchen at the first visit? A. Yes.

Q. And do you remember what time of day it was?

A. What kind of a day?

Q. What time of day?

A. Oh, it was in the fairly early morning about ten o'clock in the morning. It was a very stormy, snowy Monday morning in March, and it was very early in the morning. I went over on the harbor steamer, Bradlee " I think it is, on her first trip down. I drove from my house to Deer Island and went over on what I supposed to be the first boat, although I don't know.

the

Q. Well, what is your judgment as to the quality of the food, from what you saw there, as given to the inmates?

A. Well, it is very good nourishing, wholesome food. I have tasted of the bread and of the fish. I saw the meat. I didn't taste of the soup because it wasn't ready. It was in process of cooking. It seemed savory. At all events, it is much better food than is furnished to passengers on the ocean steamers coming over in the steerage, and very much better than is furnised to the crew better food than a very large number of the poorer class have when they are dependent upon their own exertions to procure it.

Q. Did you go through the institution building at all?

A. I did.

Q. Now, what was the condition of the dining-room as to cleanliness?

A. It was thoroughly clean.

Q. And how was it throughout the institution at that time in the morning?

A. Well, I understood that was cleaning day and there was more or less disorder, the chairs being put upon the beds and the imployees to the inmates themselves were engaged in washing the floors and mopping them and putting them in order for whatever length of time they take there between the washings. The dining-room was not in process of being washed and it was clean. The cloth was clean, the oil-cloth — and nothing objectionable. In the other wards they were in a process of being cleaned.

Q. Well, what was the condition of the wards upstairs the infirmary and nursery wards? Did you notice them particularly? A. Nothing special about them.

Q. Well, was the air bad up there?

A. No, the air was fresh, and as a matter of fact, while I was there one of the three large ventilators in the room had to be closed a little more than it was on account of the strong draught that came though it. Q. Then you noticed some ventilators there?

A. Oh, of course. There are three large ventilators in the place in the roof, the ceiling.

Q. There are three wards up there two infirmary wards and one nursery ward. Do you remember seeing ventilators in all three of those wards?

A. I remember the one where the children were with the mothers, and then there was another ward-I don't remember for what it was