Q. Well, now, when you went down there did you point out to these gentlemen the defects in the ventilation which you have testified to? A. I probably did.

Q. How do you account for the fact that they don't find anything down there to be corrected excepting the putting in of some screens ? A. With regard to the ventilation, it was summer and all the windows could be opened.

Q. Then they thought the ventilation was all right then. They didn't remember that you had pointed out to them the fact that there wasn't any ventilation?

Mr. REED. But perhaps they did. How does he know what they remember.

Mr. BRANDEIS. Well, perhaps he remembers more about it than they. I will suggest that if you keep quiet the witness can answer the question better.

Mr. REED. I will not keep quiet at your request, sir.

Mr. BRANDEIS. Will you answer the question ?

The WITNESS. - Was any question put to me?

Q (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) My question was, whether you have any explanation to give of the fact that they had apparently forgotten your criticism on the ventilation?

A. Well, where would they have got the criticism?

Q. I asked you before whether you had told them about how the ventilation was in that building?

A. I don't think I did.

Q. You don't think you said anything to them about it?

A. I don't remember, however. I think if I said anything I told them I had been employed to improve the ventilation.

Q. Had you been employed at that time, when you went down there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You were employed there already?

A. Yes, sir; have been at work there three years.

Q. On that institution building?

A. In that building, sir.

Q. Well, you have been employed in the new building?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Well, of course the work you have done there is all right, the ventilation of the new building, but didn't you tell them the old building needed ventilation ?

A. I think at that time I may have told them that the plan was under way or had been contemplated.

Q. Was the plan under way at that time? Were you at work on it at that time?

A. I think so. I feel sure that it must have been as early as that.

Q. You were not the first to work on a plan?

A.

No, the first plan was that of the B. F. Sturtevant Company. Q. The Blower Company?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you advised against that plan?

A.

No, the plan was changed because, as I understand it, they didn't want the embarrassment of electric motors.

Q. Then they came to you?

A. They asked me to work on a plan that would work by hot air.

Q. And are you able to fix the time you began yours?

A. I cannot say.

Q. You don't remember it now?

A. I can't now.

Q. Some time during the year 1893 ?

A. I should say so.

Q. The latter part of the year?

A.

I should think so, while I was on the jury.

Now, your plan contemplates ventilating the whole building? A. Yes.

Q.

let ?

And for a part of that plan the contracts have already been

A. Yes, sir; there was one large contract in items, and one item was the ventilation of this building. That contract has been awarded with the exception of this item, as I understand it, for want of an appropria

tion.

Q. But no part of this has been awarded yet on this building?
A. No, not on this building.

Q. Well, now, your plan contemplates ventilating every part of the building?

Q. And you testified the last time that the part of the building on the top, which is the nursery where the women and children are, needed ventilation, needed a thorough system of ventilation, didn't you?

A. I did.

Q. Now, isn't there already a system of ventilation there?
A. Not what I call a system of ventilation.

Q. Well, aren't there some large holes - what the common people call ventilator holes "in the roof?

A. Yes. So there are in this room. But it isn't ventilated any better for all that.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where are they?

A.

I can't tell you now, but I think behind the arches. I knew once, and I think I know now, but they don't ventilate the room all the same. Q. Now, it is said that these holes in the roof of that nursery were so large that there would be quite a lot of snow in the room cally a snow-storm in the room, if you opened the ventilators?

A.

At times possibly; yes, sir.

Q. Well, is that a good system of ventilation ?

4.

I don't consider it so.

Q. Well, is that a system at all of ventilation?
A. No, it isn't. That is accidental ventilation.

Q. Well, what is the objection to that?

practi

A. Well, because when the wind blows, you get lots of cold air and drafts, and when there isn't wind, you don't get anything at all.

Q. Well, is it feasible-the opening of those holes, whatever they are, holes in the roof of the building, for purposes of ventilation ?

A. I will tell you what the effect would be if the windows are kept closed. The effect would be that you would draw the foul air from the lower parts of the building into that attic.

Q. That is, it would be worse than if you didn't have any holes there ?

A. It wouldn't be an improvement unless the air downstairs had not got so foul as it was upstairs; but a true system of ventilation would bring in fresh air properly and warmed to the right degree and not foul air from other parts of the house. It is true that the windows could be opened, but I don't believe, as a matter of fact, that those women there would allow the windows to be opened in winter, and if they were opened they would shut them.

Q. And the holes in the roof would be closed, too?

A.

You would have to close the windows or they would make a row about it, if there was a cold draft coming in there. I do not mean to

say that the ventilators would not draw the air out, but the trouble is that with the arrangements there they would certainly not supply any fresh air in the room.

Q. Well, is there anything at all gained by having those holes in the roof, as they are down there?

A. Well, a little something. I shouldn't call it a system of ventilation, but it is better than nothing.

Q. Well, it is better than nothing if you open the windows?

A. Yes, and it is better than nothing if the valves in those ventilators were opened, because you would draw up air from downstairs. Q. Well, when you have been up there from time to time were those valves opened or were they closed?

A. Well, I didn't observe them particularly.

Q. Have you ever observed their being open?

A. No, sir; I haven't observed the position of those valves at all. Did you ever have any sensation while in there that would lead

you to believe that the valves were open?

A. My sensations in that building were that it needed ventilation throughout, everywhere. That is all I can testify about it. I didn't look into the details because I didn't think they were worth looking into.

Q. And you have a very distinct impression that that was the sensation you always had while in there?

A. Yes, sir; it smells offensively. My impression is that I wanted to get out of the building as quickly as I could.

Q. It smelled offensively in every part of the building ?

A.

Yes, sir.

Q. Upstairs as well as downstairs ?

A. Yes, sir; everywhere.

Q. In the nursery-room as well as in the infirmary below.

A. Yes, sir; everywhere. The place was clean, the house was clean, and any person who didn't have a sense of smell for those things would say that there was nothing to be found fault with, but to a person who notices whether air is good or bad it smelled very badly indeed. Q. Well, you were there often enough to really observe it?

A. Yes, sir; had to go through the building under all conditions. Q. How many times have you been in there approximately?

A. I should think ten or twelve times under varying conditions, at different times of the day, for example.

Q. And different times of the year, also?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And have always had the same sensation?

A. Yes, sir; always.

Q. Always the same offensive odor?

A. Yes, sir; and always wanted to get out as quickly as I could.

Q. Mr. Tudor, what became of the other letters. There are only twelve here, I believe what became of the other ten?

A.

Well, all the letters that I received I gave to Mr. Reed, and I don't think I received twenty-two letters.

Q. Well, do you remember how many you did receive ?

A. I should think — no, I don't.

no, I don't. I should think twelve or fourteen, something like that. I know that some of the parties did not reply at all.

Mr. BRANDEis. Have you any other letters, Mr. Reed?

Mr. REED. — That is all I have, sir.

Mr. BRANdeis. Is that all you received from Mr. Tudor?

Mr. REED. I presume so. I had them all together.

The WITNESS. I didn't count them at the time. My recollection of the letters is this, that they all said they didn't go, or didn't answer, or gave letters substantially alike.

Q. Now, what time in the day did you go down?

A. The afternoon — quarter past two boat.

Q. Do you remember the day on which you went down-at what time in the year?

ful

A.

I should think it was in the autumn.

How late in the autumn ?

I should think it was in September.

Q. September?

A.

Seems to me it must have been. I know flies were very plentiit seem to me that might be an indication.

Q. And you think that was the occasion for mentioning the necessity for screens ?

A. Yes, there was a necessity for them, no doubt.

Q. Then when did you come back? You went down on the quarter past two boat and got there when? You went first to Deer Island?

A. Yes, and then we went there. I should think we spent perhaps three-quarters of an hour in each place.

Q. You remember three-quarters of an hour on Deer Island and three-quarters of an hour on Long Island?

A. I should think so.

Q. And did you meet Dr. Cogswell down there at that time ?

A. He might have been on the wharf. I don't remember speaking

to him.

Q. You spent three-quarters of an hour on the island?

Q. Well, you showed the committee the new buildings that were going up?

A. 'We went through all the buildings; yes. The hospital was in

use.

Q. The hospital was in use and you saw that and the institution buildings?

A. We went through that.

Q. And did you also show them anything else on the island?

A. No, only in the hospital and the institution itself. We went through the men's wards, dining-room, kitchen, basement, the loafing-room, smoking-room, and looked at the water-closets-looked at everything pretty thoroughly.

Q. You took them through the buildings?

A. Yes. sir.

Q. You did it yourself, being familiar with them?

A.

I think I was pilot- yes, sir, I think I led them.

Q. Did you confer with any of the physicians down there at that time?

A. I might have spoken to them just as I would at any time.
Q. Yes-in passing,

A. I think I might. I don't remember speaking to any one. If I did I think I said I came down with some of the Grand Jury. I might have announced who they were.

Q. Well, what part of the institution did the Grand Jury investigate particularly in that three-quarters of an hour?

A. I couldn't say. They went right through the building, basement and everywhere.

Q. Simply passed through?

A. Passed through, and I think some of them stopped and conversed with the inmates. I didn't, but some of them did. Some of them recognized friends former friends

there.

Q. There was nothing especial, then, that they investigated – simply taking a general view of everything there was?

A. A general view, just as any person would. They had no particular axe to grind. They just wanted to see for themselves.

Q. Taking a general view of what there was down there and that, you say, was five or six days after you spoke to the Commissioners about it?

Q. So that they might have had time to clean it up and get it in shape?

A. Well, I don't know that I have a right to state anything about that, about the cleaning up, etc., but I have heard and read the testimony of witnesses who stated that the buildings had been cleaned up because a visit was expected.

Q. Yes.

A. Well, now, I don't think anything of that kind ever occurred. ૨. Well, how do you know whether it happened or not?

A.

Well, I will tell you because the place seemed to be whenever I was there always clean. That is my impression of the cleanliness of those buildings, both there and at Deer Island that they are always in a clean condition: but where there are great crowds of people together, people who are not originally cleanly in their habits, there will be accumulations of dirt in spite of all you can do, and I don't doubt that visits may have been made just at a time when they where cleaning up and the officials may have said, "Well, hurry up, now, somebody is coming here and we want to get this dirt out of the way.' You would do that in your own house, anybody would do it.

Q. Then you have no doubt that that was done there?

A. I should think anybody would do it when they knew a stranger was coming to their house and there was a lot of dirt- hurry it out of the way. I don't think there is anything to condemn in that.

Q. Well, you know the Board of Visitors, Dr. Putnam and others, reported that the place was dirty, the hospital and so ou ?

A. Yes. It has been a great wonder to me how they could do so. I don't understand it.

Q.

Quite a number of times.

A.

Well, they must have struck them on cleaning days every time. Q. You think it is a mere coincidence?

A. I do.

Q. That every time they would go down there it was dirty? A. I never could understand how they could ever give such testimony, because I never have been there as a visitor, have been employed to do certain work down there, and I would appear at any time, no fixed time, and they never knew when I was coming and never knew that I was there to observe and report, and I never saw a cleaner house in the world, except, perhaps, one of the colleges at Oxford. But I would like the citizens of Boston to go down there and learn what a clean house is. If it only smelled better it would be perfect.

Q. That is, in your line it isn't perfect ?

A. No, but as far as cleanliness goes I think it is a model. That is my view of it.

Q. And you never noticed any difference in any of the times you were down there?

A. Nothing more than the ordinary accumulation of dirt. For instance, you go into the kitchen when dinner has been prepared and there are potato parings, bones, trimmings off the meat, which have got to be thrown somewhere, swept off and thrown into the tubs. Now, if you go into the kitchen and see those things it isn't very attractive, but an hour after that, it is all swept out and everything is clean again. It is just like going into a factory where there is sawdust, shavings of all