kinds, all littered about, but you cannot call it dirt. It is just the same here it is just what will collect in the ordinary process of house Q. You think, then, that the visitors were mistaken when they said that every time they went down there, they saw dirt in the hospital and institutions. A. I do. Q. You don't think they know what dirt is? A. No, I think they were mistaken or deceived. All I have got to say is, that I haven't seen any, and I believe I am a close observer. is my business. It Q. They are used to visiting institutions, also, aren't they? They compared that to the State institutions? A. Well, you must put my testimony against theirs. That is all I can say about it. Q. Well, I think that is what the committee will have to do That is all, Mr. Tudor. Q. (By Ald. LOMASNEY.) Mr. Tudor, how many men were there on the Grand Jury? A. Well, I should think seven or eight. I really don't remember the exact number. Q. Out of the twenty-three? A. Yes, that is my recollection. I didn't count them. Q, Well, give us your best recollection of how many went down ? A. Well, I should say, counting myself, nine. Q. Well, five answered that there was nothing wrong as far as they could sec. A. If you have counted them. Q. I have. Seven didn't go. You received responses from twelve members of the Grand Jury? A. According to the letters. Q. Seven didn't go and five say that they saw nothing wrong. A. That leaves ten. That accounts for seven and five, twelve, and leaves ten unaccounted for, doesn't it? Q. Yes, sir- ten unaccounted for, and about one-half of those who went down respond that they saw nothing wrong. A. It so appears by their letters. Q. Do you know the names of the men who did go and who didn't respond? Á. I don't know about the names. I had to go to court to get their names. I didn't remember a single one of their names. Q. Well, you asked permission to go down there? A. I went to the Commissioners and they said, "You tell the captain that you are to go down any day you like all right, except Saturday.' Q. When did you let them know you were going down Wednesday? A. I don't think we let them know. Q. Well, when did you let them know? A. Well, say, for instance, I went there Thursday and said I would like to go Saturday. Q. And they said you couldn't go Saturday, but could go Wednes day? A. No, any day. Q. How did you happen to go Wednesday? A. We agreed on that among ourselves. Q. Who? A. The Grand Jury. Q. Who were there when you made that agreement? A. Well, we were in our room, after getting through the business of the day. Q. Well, give us the names of some of the Grand Jurors there? A. You will have to give me the letters. Q. Well, give him the letters. Do you remember writing a letter to one of the Grand Jury by the name of Gilbride ? A. Wrote to every one - yes, I remember that name. Q. Was he there when you made that agreement? A. I don't know. I can't testify to that. Michael Gilbride; yes, sir, I remember perfectly. Q. Was he present when you made the agreement? A. I should say he must have been. It was right after our duties were over for the day, just after we adjourned, at one o'clock. Q. Was that after you had been to the Commissioners' office and made arrangements to go? A. That is my recollection. Q. After that Thursday or Saturday, which? A. Well, they had appointed me and Mr. well, another member, to go up to the Commissioners and get authority to go. Q. Who was the other member who went up with you? Q. He was present at the interview? A. Yes, sir. Q. What is his first name? A. Q. A. Walter. Where does he live? He is treasurer of a manufacturing company and has an office on Chauncey street did at that time. Q. Did he go down with you when you made the visit? A. No, says not in the letter here. I didn't know it, but I wrote to him, and there is his letter. Q. Now, what time in the week does the Grand Jury meet? A. They met every day. Q. For how many days every month? A. Meet every month for about a week. Q. Well, now, what part of the month do you meet? A. The first of the month, I think. Q. A. The first week in the month or the last week? I think so. Q. Well, which is it? A. I don't know I have forgotten. Q. Now, what was the date you went down to visit Long Island? A. I testified previously that I thought early in September- along that time, I should say. Q. Give us somewhere near the date? A. The first of September, I should say. Q. You can't tell whether the first or the last? A. No, sir. I can't. I should say the latter part of August or the early part of September. Q. But you do say the arrangement was made right after you had concluded your labors as a Grand Jury for the month? A. Yes no, no. Q. Well, let us have that right? A. The arrangement was made during the week while we were in session. Q. During the week while you were in session? I would not be exact on that, but I should say in September – that is, providing we met the first week. Q. You should say September. How many days were you in session that month before you went up to the Commissioners? A. I should say three or four days. Q. Then how did you reach the Grand Jurors to tell them to go down Wednesday? A. Well, you see after I saw the Commissioners Thursday afternoon we met again Friday afternoon and when we adjourned that day I made my report. Q. That is the way you did it? A. That is my recollection of it. Q. Then you told them you were going down Wednesday, couldn't go down Saturday? A. No, I told them we couldn't go down of a Saturday, but could go any other day we selected. .. A. Then how did you notify the Grand Jurors to go Wednesday ? I didn't notify them - they notified themselves passed a vote. Q. Passed a vote Friday to visit the next Wednesday ? A. That is my recollection. Q. Any question about that? A. Oh, Yes. Q. Let us have no question about that- how is it? A. The question might have been put on a Thursday. Q.. We want to settle when you decided officially to go down there Wednesday. A. You can't get that from me, because I don't know. Q. You went and saw the Commissioners ? A. Yes, sir; I cannot give you the date. Q. Was it the day after you reported that you couldn't go Saturday, that you decided to go Wednesday? A. That is a pretty fine question for me to answer. I can't answer it, can't remember it. Q. Well, you want us to understand, as a matter of evidence, from you, that the day after you visited the Commissioners the Grand Jurors voted to visit these institutions the next Wednesday is that right? A. Substantially, as I remember; it yes. I won't swear it is exactly right- I can't do it. Q. No, but that is your best recollection? A. Yes, sir; it is my best recollection. Q. After voting that way when did you communicate that fact to the Commissioners ? A. I don't think I communicated it at all. Q. Do you recollect now whether you communicated it to the Commissioners the day afterwards? A. No, sir, I do not. Q. Well, could you have done it without remembering it? A. Very likely. Q. You will not swear now that you didn't, will you? A. No. Q. You might have? A. Might have, certainly. Q. And they might have had from your intimation, if you had been talking to them, a notice that you were going down as the Grand Jury the next Wednesday? A. They might have. Q. You don't think there is any doubt of it, do you, after the vote of the Grand Jurors? A. Yes, sir, I do I beg pardon. Q. Do you think there is any doubt about it that they might have had? A. I don't think there is a doubt that they might have had, but there is great doubt that they did have. Q. Why do you have a doubt that they might have had? A. The doubt is this - they said we might go any day but Saturday. Q. Yes, but they voted to go Wednesday. Now, as a matter of courtesy did you not notify them of the fact ? A. I don't think the question of courtesy would enter into it. I don't think I did. Q. Had you been to the Commissioners in the meantime ? A. No. Q. Had you been to the Commissioners' office in the meantime ? Q. Still you want the committee to believe that you didn't notify them, or any of the members didn't, that you were going the next Wednesday ? A. I want the committee to get the truth. Q. How is it? Settle the question and leave it any way you please. I don't care what way you leave it. How is that! A. Please put the question in a distinct way and I will try to answer it, sir. Q. Is there any doubt in your mind but what the Commissioners knew you had voted to go down there the next Wednesday? A. Yes, decidedly. Q. What makes you think so? A. I told you that they told me that we could go any day, and we decided on a day, and that ended it. And accordingly on that day we went without further parley with anybody. Q. Why did you say a moment ago that you might have notified them ? A. Because I can't remember that I didn't. Q. Then you won't swear that you didn't? A. I won't swear that I didn't; no. Q. They might have had an intimation from several of the members, for all you know? A. Yes, very likely. Q. You have no doubt that they had? A. Oh, I don't say that, indeed I don't. Q. What do you say? I did not hear the first of your testimony, but I understood that you were going on to say that you saw some evidence here that you thought was liable to give a mistaken idea, that there was some mistake. What was that sentence which you left uncompleted? A. What I said was that I thought that the evidence that the place was dirty, was mistaken evidence, and I was very anxious to bring evidence to controvert that statement. Q. And you started in to get evidence? A. Yes, sir. Q. You were a procurer of evidence? A. Yes, sir; for myself - not in the way you use the words, "procurer of evidence." Q. Well, you said you were satisfied that that was mistaken evidence and you started to procure evidence to contradict it? A. Yes, sir; but that doesn't make me a procurer of evidence in the sense that you mean. I understand it in another way, if you will allow me to explain. Q. Yes, sir. A. My feeling was this, that an injustice was being done to those institutions. I am a citizen of Boston and have lived here all my life and my fathers before me. I am proud of this city, and I don't care to see false statements going out about the mismanagement of our institutions. I felt as a citizen that it was my duty to come up here, and testify and bring others to testify, to what we thought was the truth. In that sense I was a procurer of evidence, and in no other. Q. How much work have you done for the Commissioners of Public Institutions the last four or five years? How many thousands have you drawn out from that department? A. I think I have drawn out about $35. Q. Thirty-five dollars? A. Yes, sir; from the Commissioners of Public Institutions. Q. Well, take the City Architect's Department that you have been doing the ventilation work on ? A. How much money? Q. Yes. A. I can't tell you without reference to my books. Q. But you have only received about $35 ? A. Directly from the Commissioners of Public Institutions. They are not my employers. Q. No, but when you build a building and you put in your system of ventilation what appropriation is it paid out of? A. I can't tell you. That is not my part of it. Q. You haven't put any ventilation in these different buildings, have your system? you Not in the institution. What other buildings? The hospital and new dormitory. Q. Well, the hospital how much have you drawn out in the way your ventilation for the hospital? A. I can't tell you. Q. Roughly - I don't care about your being exact. A. I can tell you the commission I receive on my work. Q. Yes, sir. A. Five per cent. Q. Well, about how much have you received, your firm, for your system of ventilation? A. I can't tell you. Q. Well, did you receive $1,000 ? A. Oh, yes. Q. Did you receive $2,000 ? Q. Well, did you receive $5000 ? A. No-I should think perhaps $2,500 or $3,000. Q. Now, what did you receive that for? A. For services rendered as an engineer. Q. Your own personal services? A. Mine and my employees'. Q. Well, who are your employees'? The CHAIRMAN. I don't see how it is necessary to go in to that. Ald. LOMASNEY. Well, I propose to get at the facts in regard to this and see about the system of ventilation. The CHAIRMAN. Well, the chairman does not see how the names of the employees have anything to do with this case. Ald. LOMASNEY. Well, Mr. Chairman, if the Chair will wait a moment and recognize that I am a member of this committee he will understand that the employees who have visited these institutions might well be summoned and tell what they saw in the institutions. I want to |