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given an opinion to the chairman of that committee stating distinctly that there was no power in the Commissioners of Public Institutions to enforce these results, and that that was the only opinion which had been given on the subject up to the time that the limit for new business to be introduced into the Legislature of 1894 had expired, would you criticise the Commissioners for following that opinion rather than one which came later?

A. Well, that is a very long question and it may take me half an hour to study it out. I think I will have to ask the stenographer to repeat that.

(The stenographer repeated the question.)

Well, what were the conditions of the opinion which came later?

Q. The former opinion to which I have referred stated distinctly that the Commissioners had no power.

A. But what is the one that came later?

Q. The one that came later was diametrically opposite. Up to May 10, 1894, after this investigation was under way, and the time for asking the Legislature for additional authority had passed for this year, there had been no opinion excepting an opinion of Mr. Morison, chairman of the special committee, stating that the Commissioners of Public Institutions had no authority in the premises. Then, May 10, an opinion on the opposite side was given. Now, my question was, are the Commissioners to be criticised for following the former opinion?

A. No.

RECROSS-EXAMINATION.

2. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) Now, I will ask you another question, Mr. Tudor.

A. I don't care how many questions you ask, because you have to do most of the talking.

Q. Assuming that these Commissioners, Mr. Tudor, came into office in May, '89, and that, as you have stated, any person of common sense who had considered the subject must know that classification and compulsory labor were necessary for the proper management of the institutions, don't you think that these Commissioners ought, if they believed that they didn't have power to enforce the labor and classification, between May, '89, and January, '94, have attempted to get some legistion ?

A. Yes, if as citizens of common sense they believed it would have been possible to do it.

Q. That is, if they didn't believe they had power they ought to have attempted to get it?

A. No, I didn't say that. I said if they didn't believe they had power, they needn't act unless they believed there was a chance of their getting it.

Q. Now, do you think there is any doubt of the chance of their getting it if they really want it?

A. I do.

Q. Why?

A. I think politics come into these questions altogether too much. It isn't a question of humanity, it isn't a question of reforming these prisoners, half so much as it is a question of politics.

Q. Well, you think it isn't worth while making a reform?

A. I think it is very doubtful if the attempt can be made successfully.

Q. Well, do you think it isn't worth while to make the attempt?
A. No, sir, I didn't say that.

Q. Do you think the report of the Board of Visitors, seconded as it seems to have been by many high officials, endeavoring to secure

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classification and compulsory labor at the institutions, has been work that there is no use trying it?

thrown away

A. I am almost afraid that is my opinion.

Q. Why do think that is so?

A.

tration.

Because I think it is a question of politics rather than adminis

Q. You think it is useless to attempt any reform?

A. Yes.

Q. Why is it a question of politics?

A. Because I don't think the average citizens cares anything about it. It is only a certain class, a few people, very often the best in the community, but they are not always the most influential and they don't cast all the votes they don't have a majority that is the trouble.

Q. And you think, therefore, it would be useless to make the attempt, and the Commissioners would be excused for not making any attempt to enforce this?

it.

A.

Well, I think they would be men of great courage to undertake

Q. Well, don't you think they are that one of them, at least, is a man of a good deal of courage?

A. Perhaps it would take even greater courage than he has.

Q. To make the attempt?

A. I don't say to make the attempt. I say I think there is small hope of carrying it through.

Q. And you would exculpate them from any blame for not attempting to carry it through?

A. Well, so far as my statements go, I should.

Q. That is, you don't think it is a proper thing to attempt to get legislation ?

A. No, sir; I didn't say that. I said I thought there was small hope of their success.

Q. Do you think it would be proper not to attempt to get legislation if they believed they didn't have the power? You don't think it was proper not to have attempted it - whether, if they thought they didn't have the power, it was a proper thing to attempt to get legislation before '94?

A. I think as a practical matter they probably used their best judgment. They felt that they couldn't get the power.

Q. I am not asking you whether you thought they used their best judgment.

A.

You asked me if I thought they should be excused, and I say“Yes.” Q. And you think, therefore, there ought not to be any attempt made?

A. I think they are not censurable for not doing it- that is, the Commissioners.

Q. And you think they are not censurable for not trying, although lawyers say they have the power not trying to enforce that power, standing there with their hands idle, although no Court has said that they have not the power to do it, and lawyers say they have the power, and when the citizens also came forward and undertook to hold up their hands and help them?

A. I believe, of course, they would need the assistance of citizens. Q. Yes, exactly, and that was the very use of the Board of Visitors by arousing public sentiment.

A.

Yes, sir.

Q. And as that was the very purpose, and they needed the support of the citizens, don't you think you ought to have rallied to the support when others started the movement? Somebody has got to start it ?

A. Yes, sir,

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Q.

And when this Board of Visitors and Mrs. Lincoln urged again and again this classification and compulsory labor you think they were doing what you consider necessary and proper in connection with the management of the public institutions?

A. Yes, sir; I hope they will continue.

Q.

A.

And you approve of it?

Yes, sir.

.. And you think the thing cannot be run properly without that support in the community?

A. Yes.

Q. And all that they have said in regard to the necessity of arousing public sentiment in favor of it is correct?

A. A great deal of it.

Q. To secure good management you think there should be a proper public sentiment in regard to the institutions?

A. Yes can't do it without arousing public sentimeut.

Q.

And you are willing to join with them in any further efforts to accomplish that result?

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Q. I think we can congratulate them on your coöperation.

Q. (By Ald. LEE.) Mr. Tudor, do you think the Commissioners could be criticised if they had presented a bill to the Legislature and that bill was thrown out or rejected? Should they, then, be criticised for asking for these very reforms?

A. No.

Q.

If they had made the attempt to get the legislation they should not be criticised?

A. No; and what I also said was that it was doubtful if they ought to be criticised anyway, because as practical men it seems to me they know if they cannot get the power.

on.

-Q. Well, there are some things that they may be open to criticism Now, I want to ask you, Mr. Tudor, as a citizen of Boston and a tax-payer, I believe, if the city of Boston pays $12,000 or $13,000 a year to three men, and the statute law says they shall have the entire management and care if the institutions, what would you do if they neglected their duty?

A. Well, I don't know what the proper procedure is, whether impeachment or what.

Q. Well, they are appointed by the chief magistrate and confirmed by the Board of Aldermen and are subject to removal for cause.

A. I should ask for a hearing and bring the charge against them.

Q. Then, if you have three gentlemen there serving as Commissioners and receiving $12,000 or $13,000 a year, do you believe that it is necessary to appoint a board of visitors with supervisory power over them?

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Q. That is where you and I disagree, that is all.

A.

I will tell you why, if you will allow me.

Q. I shall, certainly, I want to get myself clear on this, you know. I may be in error and you may be right.

A. I think the officials and managers of an institution sometimes have great difficulty in getting at the truth, and the inmates would not be apt to talk with them. The officials would not be apt to talk with thein unless they were asked specific questions. Now, the visitors can go down and can talk with the inmates, can talk with the officials, and being people of the world and of good practical judgment, they can take what

they find to the Commissioners. That is the sense in which I think they might be useful.

Q. Then the statements which you made in regard to what Mrs. Lincoln based her complaints upon, that she should not take it from the inmates, you want to retract?

A. No, I quallify that.

Q. You don't want to take it back?

A. No; I say too much attention shouldn't be paid to the complaints of inmates. especially certain kinds of inmates the old, the feeble, and, perhaps, those who have been always unfortunate, those always down on their luck. As I say, these people, when they eventually get to heaven will have fault to find never will be contented anywhere. Q. Well, that is a chance we have all got to take, isn't it?

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Mr. RILEY. We won't find any fault if we get there.

Q. (By Ald. LEE.) Then you believe that a Board of Visitors might visit the institutions — I will take the pauper institutions, leaving the penal institutions out and get more information than the three Commissioners who are paid twelve thousand or thirteen thousand dollars a year?

A.

In some respects I do certainly think they could.

Q. Well, you think they could get it from the inmates or the officers, which ?

A. Both.

Q. Well, you think the officers in the institutions, if the Commissioners went down there and asked them any questions, would not answer them truthfully?

A. That isn't it exactly. It is simply that every man knows when those things exist that the head man, the manager, doesn't get the trnthIt is kept from him.

Q. What exists ?

A.

He doesn't get the truth always. There is always a small crowd about every man who occupies a high position who take particular pains that he shall not know the whole truth. It is always so.

Q. Well, have you found that so in the Architect's Department? A. Well, I don't know but it may be so. I know I have been hauled over the coals pretty badly up there sometimes. Mr. Wheelwright is a pretty hard taskmaster, and I have thought sometimes that if I paid a little more court to Mr. Wheelwright I would receive better attention, but my work fortunately has carried me through every time. I am not much of a courtier, but there are men who are, who make it a business. to surround the high man and keep him from knowing anything that isn't to their personal advantage.

Q. (By Ald. LOMASNEY.)

And you think that there is such a clique

around the different institutions?

A. I think there are such cliques all over the world, everywhere, ramifying right through society.

Q. (By Ald. LEE.) Even in the Board?

A. I shouldn't wonder.

(A recess was taken at 6.54 o'clock P.M. to 8 o'clock P.M.)

EVENING SESSION.

The hearing was resumed in the Aldermanic Chamber at 8 o'clock P. M., Chairman HALLSTRAM presiding.

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Q.

And how long have you worked for them?

A. I have been with them about eighteen months.

Q. Previous to that time where were you employed?

A.

Q.

4.

I was with S. S. Sleeper & Co.

What is their business?

Wholesale grocery business.

Q. Have you been selling groceries to the City of Boston for use in the public institutions?

4. I have.

Q. And how long have you been selling to the city?

A. Well, I don't know exactly how long, but I commenced selling

them, I think, ten or twelve years ago.

Q. Then you sold before the present Board of Commissioners came into existence ?

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Q. Now, what is the system of purchasing? How do you get the business?

A. The first and fifteenth of the month, we go to the Commissioners' office, and they make out a list of the goods they are to buy, and we make our prices. I make my prices on the requisitions which come in on the first and fifteenth. I make my price and I hand it in practically a bid.

Q. Do you make a bid?

A. Yes.

Q.

not?

A.

And then, how do you know whether you get the business or
Are you notified then and there or later on?

Later on. We are notified later on as to whether we get the orders or not.

Q. Do you know whether there is any competition for those orders? Yes, sir; there is a great deal.

A.

Q. You submit your bids the first and fifteenth ?

A. Yes.

Q. And if your bid is the lowest you get the business?

4.

Yes, sir.

Q. Is the quality of the goods to be furnished specified?

A. Well, there are a great many things that you cannot specify the quality of. They are all to be good things. I have been notified before

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