A. Yes, sir; I was organizing a similar institution, on the same plan as ours, by invitation of the authorities there and the churches.

Q. Well, how long have you been in this business, Mr. Roberts? A. Well, I might say I have been interested twenty-two years in the work; but I have only been officially connected with this institution seven years next May, I think it is.

Q. Well, you have visited Long Island, have you not?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And did you ever go down there when Mr. McCaffrey was deputy?

4. Yes, sir.

Q. And you knew Mr. McCaffrey?

A. I want to say here that he and I are friends. I give whatever information I have here to-night without any prejudice.

Q. I understood you were friends.

A. Yes; and I want that understood.

I

Q. You went down there in July, 1883, looking after some man who was under charge of some crime?

A. July 26, I believe it was -- one John Buckley, who had committed embezzlement.

Q. What did you go down for?

A.

I went down to identify him.

Q. You went down with an officer?

A. No, Mr. McCaffrey was an officer; and I brought him up, being an officer myself.

Q. What was this man doing down there?

A. He was working on the Government works.

Q. And was the money which he embezzled, or whatever it was, recovered, do you remember?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And through the effort of yourself and Mr. McCaffrey?

4. Well, he plead guilty in court, and I recommended mercy. Ile promised to pay when he received his salary, and Mr. McCaffrey kindly suggested that he would get it and send it to me; and on those conditions the Court released him.

Q. Well, did Mr. McCaffrey show you about the pauper institutions at that time?

1. He did.

Q. Where did he take you?

A. Took me all over them -- about the different institutions and grounds, generally.

Q. Did he introduce you to the superintendent ?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did he say in general about the institution ?

4. Well, he spoke in the highest possible manner complimentary to the institution and its usage and the advantages that it offered to the inmates

Q. And what about the superintendent?

A. I think I asked him if that was the Dr. Cogswell that held the position of Port Physician, I think I said-I don't exactly remember the term I used -- and he said, "Yes; and he is a good fellow. " I asked him if he resided there, and he said, Yes. There was another gentleman with Dr. Cogswell. I was also introduced to him; and they afterwards drove off in the van there.

Q. Then did he take you about the operating-room?

A. Yes, sir. He took me through the different places in fact,

every place. He was very courteous and very kind.

Q. Did he show you the place where the medicines were kept?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did he show you the food?

A. Yes, sir. One of my cooks was down there cooking at the time. - had formerly been in my institution; or one of the helpers, I should say.

Q. What remarks did he make about the food, if any?

A. He asked me what I thought of it, and I said that, comparing the institution there as I saw it with other institutions that I have seen in San Francisco and other States - Georgia, the District of Columbia, Jersey, and such places - I thought it compared very favorably. I said that, of course, I might say there was one thing, and that was the hospital. I thought they ought to have blinds on it. He said, Yes, we are going to have blinds on it. " He said, “They are looking that thing up now. Those are the words he said, if I remember rightly.

Q. And did he call your attention to the cleanliness of the institution? A. Yes, sir. He took me around and asked me what I thought of it, and I said, well, that it compared favorably, and was in some respects very much better than those in San Francisco, for instance, and in Atlanta, and other places. I thought it was ahead of most places. In fact, I don't know from my personal knowledge of any institution that would be better than it with the exception of two, One of them I visited two years ago in Matteawan on the Hudson the new State institution and the other one was the one at Cranston. I was invited to visit those, and I think they are better; but it compared with others very favorably.

Q. At this time he had nothing but words of praise for the whole institution and for the superintendent?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that true?

Q. And do you remember of any particular way in which he characterized the place?

4. Well, I asked him how the inmates were and what work they did, and he said that practically they didn't do very much. He took me to a carpenter shop, and if I remember rightly there was one man working there. I asked him how many carpenters they managed to employ and he said he managed to do the tinkering around there. Then we went into Loafers' Hall, and I identified a number of men. One man he called by one name, and I called him by another. He evidently had more than one name; but I knew the man. One man wanted me to taste some of

the food; and I think I drank some of the coffee or tea, whichever it was. It was getting towards supper-time.

Q. Did you see the men working in the hay-field?

A. Yes, sir. He said they employed men on the farm, or out in the field there. There were also some men over from the island. I went back on the boat with them that night.

Q.

(By Mr. BRANDEIS.) You mean from Deer Island?

4. They were over from Deer Island; yes, sir.

(By Mr. REED.) Well, in showing you through the hospital, and in speaking to you of the good care which the patients received, did he make this remark to you that the place was a heaven on earth for some of those poor people?

A.

Yes, something to that effect. I think it was that very term. I was speaking about one Celia Kelley at the time, who was sick down there. I happened to see her in the ward, and I asked her how she was getting along. She was formerly in our institution. She said she was getting along very nicely; that she was very comfortable, etc.

Q. Was it on the occasion of that visit that he called your attention to the fact that a colored boy had died there ?

A.

There was a little colored boy being taken away on the same boat that I came up on.

Q. And he called your attention to him as having grown very thin?

A. Yes, sir.

And he told you how carefully he was placed in the coffin? A. He said there was cotton put in. He said he had grown so poor that there was nothing but bones, but that they did the best they could to send him to his friends.

Q. And you say you have very many men at your present institution who come from Deer Island and the House of Correction. Now, have you any means of knowing what those men think of the treatment they have received in those places?

A. Well, if I should judge from the way they want to get down there, they like it better than they do up here in the city, — very many of them. I have interviewed a number of them, especially since this investigation has been going on; and while they consider it is their own fault to be there, they have been treated as humanely and kindly as was possible under such circumstances.

Mr. REED. - I think that is all.

CROSS-EXAMINATION.

Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) Mr. Roberts, what is the exact nature of your institution? Davis' Home, is it?

4.

Well, it is the Boston Industrial Home. It is on Davis street, and it goes by that name sometimes.

Q. Is it a private charity?

1. It is a private charity; yes, sir; and yet you might not call it a charity in the strictest sense of the word, because every man is made self-supporting. We teach men the law of self-respect, making him feel that he is entitled to what he earns and is not to be considered a beneficiary.

Q.

Well, how many people do you have there?

A. On an average, about 125 inmates in the different departments. We have more than that sometimes.

Q. You have been connected with that how long?

1. Eight years, I think it is, the first of next May.

2. Well, you say you make them self-supporting. How do you do that ?

A. By throwing around them such helpful influences, in the first place, as will have a moral tendency to uplift them; by affording them such entertainment in the Home as we can and think proper- it is Christian in its principle — and by affording lectures and meeting and devotional exercises. You must understand it is unsectarian, interdenominational. No man is debarred because of creed or color. Then we try as far as possible to give employment to the skilled. We also make a discrimination between the skilled and the unskilled, and we also give the unskilled employment.

Q. Now, you say that you throw these moral influences about them. Will you tell the committee a little more in detail just what you do? A. Well, you mean on the moral side, moral standpoint ?

Q. I mean from the moral and intellectual standpoint, as distinguished from the working, which I will take up later.

A. In the first place, the fact that ninety-nine out of one hundred persons who apply there are unfortunate

Q.

You mean by "unfortunate "what?

A. I mean intemperate; and once in a while we have a man who is not intemperate, from a hospital, or something of that kind. Of course, that man is exempt from labor. In the first place, when a man sits down in the dining-hall, there is a blessing asked on the meal.

Q. A blessing?

A. Yes, sir; teaching that man that there is a Giver of all good things if you want to know the principle.

Q. Yes, I wish you would go into details as much as possible. A. That hall which he is invited down into is the equal of any dining hall in this city. There is another thing. We try to elevate every man by teaching him cleanliness. Before he comes in there, we expect every man to wash in the wash-room. Then, of course, there is a meeting at noon, at which these men gather to seek help divine help, to supplement their own will-power, to keep them the remainder of the day as they have been kept the forepart of the day; then three times a week we have meetings in the chapel, which will hold 150. I just left one of those meetings. Dr. Gordon was there, with others. Last Sunday the Harvard students were there. We had an orchestra of different pieces, and the young ladies from the Conservatory, and in fact, from all the different churches, are invited to come. Once in a while I give a temperance talk myself, as I do to the different institutions when I am invited; that is, the House of Correction, the State Prison, etc.

Q. Well, how are these people employed when they are not at work? I mean, how are they occupied when they are not at work? A. There is a large reading-room, with all the periodicals, magazines, and newspapers; and then we have games, such as dominoes, checkers, etc., in the reading-room; and then our purpose is to give a man work for what he has had in the way of meals and living. They are supposed to work for their clothes, if they have any given to them. Then they are supposed to go out in the afternoon and seek labor. They are given a card, and they are supposed to present that card as coming from us, and the persons to whom he has applied for employment will put their signatures on it, showing that he has made an effort to get employ

ment.

Q. Now, in the Home, how are they employed?

4. Manual labor, you mean?

Q. Yes. You say you distinguish between the skilled and the unskilled.

A.

Well, we have an employment bureau. If a man is wanted to do carpenter work, plumbing, painting, white-washing, or anything of that kind, we send those men. The moneys are paid into our institution, and if that man has a family. his family receives the benefit of his labor. He signs a contract to that effect. Then, if he goes out and works and earns - well, they usually get from fifteen to twenty-five or thirty cents an hour, according to the class of work they perform; and if he is an intemperate man, his contract reads that the money shall be spent according to the best judgment of the superintendent, who has a receipt for all money. I bank that money. As you may happen to remember, one fellow got away with $700 a few weeks ago, and I was out that much, with the exception of what was made up by some kindhearted citizens. That money which is received is put to his account. Out of that money he is clothed until he is sufficiently strong to take care of himself; and then he is put into a position, and his money is put to his credit, if he has a sufficient amount, on the condition that he draws it as I, as trustee, may permit.

Q. Do you have only men?

A. We have men and women, both. We have one building for women and women with children.

Q. Are they in the same building?

A. No. We have four buildings, you might say two on Harrison

avenue and two on Davis street.

Q. How complete is the separation?

A. It is entire, that is to say, just as this room might be separated from that (pointing) by a door. The door is locked on both sides. The only place where they could meet would be the dining-room, and the men eat first, and then the women afterwards; and then we have another dining-room above.

Q. The class of people you have is very much the same class that goes down to Long Island?

4. Oh, yes, in many respects.

Q. Quite a number of your inmates have been on Long Island at one time and another?

4. Oh, yes, they come and go.

Q.

Now, do you have any trouble in making your people work? A. Yes, some.

Q.

A.

Do you keep anybody there who doesn't work?

Not except those who are unable to work — sick and infirm. Q. Well, do you feel that work is essential to the salvation of these people?

A. I think that idle hands are the Devil's work tools, very often. Q. Do you think it is possible to bring these people up to be self-respecting people and decent members of the community without work? 4. No, sir, I don't -- not while they are willing that some one else should work for them.

Q. Now, in regard to the conduct of Long Island. In the running of that pauper institution of the city, would you deem compulsory labor to be absolutely essential?

A. For those who were able to perform it, I should.

Q. I mean for the able-bodied, as distinguished from those who are

not.

1.

I have been instrumental in organizing ten institutions all over this country for that very purpose. I believe in that.

Q. Now, you have been sufficiently interested, I presume, in the coudition of Long Island, to have read the report of the special committee that was appointed by the Mayor, and that made its report June 30, 1892 ?

A. I have only heard abstracts from that. I have been so busy and out of town so much that I am not really well informed on that thing; but I have been very much interested in coming in here to the hearings when I could, as you may have noticed, to get all the information I could. I have not much time to read.

Q. Previous to the commencement of this investigation you never considered that subject in reference to Long Island?

4. Oh, yes, I have always considered it in reference to penal and pauper institutions.

Q. You have?

A. Yes, sir. I have written a little book on it.

Q. Have you got that book here?

A. No, sir. I don't carry it with me.

Mr. BRANDEIS. --I wish you had.

Mr. RILEY.. Has the second edition of it been called for?

The WITNESS. -It will be ready when the first edition runs out. Mr. BRANDEIS. - Well, I think Mr. Roberts' views are so sound in what he has said that it ought to have been called for long ago.

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The WITNESS. — I would be glad to send you a copy of it, if you would like it, and also copies of the reports of the Home; and you will there see my sentiments.

Mr. BRANDEIS. — I should be glad to receive them.

Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) In the report of the special committee appointed by the Mayor, which made its report in June, 1892, in that part of the report relating to Long Island they recommended that the able-bodied be made to work. That you would wholly second, would you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you think that is true without qualification?

1. Well, I should modify that in this way, that they should earn a just compensation for the labor they performed.