Q. Well, I mean not getting men work, as you say, outside of your institution, but while they are there, how varied is the work which you have the inmates do?

A. Well, there is one man printing to-day, for instance, in the printing departinent. He had work assigned him to do-- some printing; and the main industry, I might say, which we make a labor test, is the wood business and coal. We have, I think, eight or nine teams altogether.

Q. Well, now, that is work which is done in the institution itself?

4. Yes, sir.

Q. You do the sawing of wood and work like that in the instistution itself. What other work is done in the institution be

sides?

A. Well, the institution on the corner of Davis street and Harrison avenue doesn't have any particular work except that we have carpentering done there and we have had plumbing. We have men to do such jobs. We have a workshop just for that special work. But we do make brooms. I have started institutions where they manufacture brooms and brushes.

Q. Yes.

4. And we are inaugurating a work now where they make paper boxes.

Q. Yes.

A. Such things that it doesn't take very long to learn or doesn't require skilled labor to perform.

Q. What else is there any other kinds of work?

A. Well, we are buying, or, at least, thinking about buying, one of those farms in New Hampshire that there is so much talk about one or two of them and starting a soap factory there, gather ing up the grease here in the city and putting the men on the farm and manufacturing the grease into soap and then selling it here in the city, and we are also thinking of having a carpet factory here. That is work we are trying to solve at the present time.

Q. Now, you have stated that you attempt, so far as possible, to make these men self-supporting, and that you have about 125 inmates on an average. What portion of those 125 are at work earning something?

A. Well, perhaps about two-thirds of them.

Q. Are earning something?

A. Yes, more than that. I should judge that probably fourfifths of them are earning something.

Q. That is, 100 out of the 125 would be earning something? A. I should judge so; yes, sir. There might be 25 who came to us, boarders. They don't work they are sent to us and those who send them are responsible for their maintenance while there. Q. And don't they earn anything?

A. Well, we take those men and relieve those who have sent them to us. But during the first day the order calls for, of course, we are not responsible and they are not responsible to us, but we in every instance try to relieve the sender of that burden of the man who is sent to us. The order is merely an introduction to us, and

we understand that we give that man labor, and so they change in that way.

Q. Now, taking the other 100, how many of the other 100 succeed in supporing themselves entirely?

A. Well, all of them. Every man is self-supporting and every woman is self-supporting. There are about 25 women, you know, in the woman's department, washing, scrubbing, and cleaning. Others go into window-cleaning. We have a window brigade, and a great many sell articles on the street. We find that they are making an honest effort to make a living, and we charge them just 15 cents for their accommodations, a nominal sum, so that they shall not be considered public beneficiaries in any way, that they may pay something for that which they receive.

Q. And you give them all the accommodations?

A. Yes, sir; and free use of the reading-room, for twelve and a half cents.

Q. They are charged, then, against their earnings this regular sum?

A. Yes, sir; that is charged against their earnings.

Q. Now, are the expenses of the institution borne mostly, fourfifths of the expenses paid out of the earnings of these people? A. I don't understand that question exactly.

Q. You speak of the institution, and that 100 out of 125 are practically self-supporting. Are the expenses of the institution to the extent of four-fifths paid by the work of these people?

A. Yes, sir; our average expenses are between $4,000 and $5,000 a month, as you will see by that report I gave you $46,000 last last year.

Q. For the year.

A. Yes, sir a little over.

Q. And out of that $46,000 how much is paid by the labor of these inmates?

A. Well, they support themselves and the balance goes to their support.

Q. Well, you meun the balance they are entitled to?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You hold it in trust, practically, for them.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. But there is some part of the expense of your Home which is paid by private benevolence, isn't there?

A. We have a legacy or two in the way of an endowment, but it isn't very large. I think we have got $12,000 now. I am going to put up a building for boys on the corner of Dover street and Harrison avenne. We were looking at that piece of property, and that is what I am trying to raise now money to put up a $35,000 building there for boys, so as to give these boys a home. Q. Then are the buildings owned entirely by the Home? 1. Yes, sir.

Q. Owned absolutely?

A. Yes, these building are, all together.

Q. So that the expense of the institution so far as it represents rent of those buildings, is paid by the funds which have been donated from time to time?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. But the ordinary running expenses of the institution are paid by the labor of the inmates?

A. We manage to pay the expenses out of whatever is earned from the income.

Q. From the individuals?

4. As the revenue from the labor performed by the individuals? Q. Yes. And now in regard to this remaining twenty-five. Out of 125 you say four-fifths support themselves, but the remaining one-fifth how do you bear the expense incurred in connection Who pays Who pays their expenses?

with them?

4. Well, there are benevolently inclined people in Boston who would do that. For instance, Mrs. Lincoln might be interested in a man or woman and send down to us a note, saying that if we had labor for he or she to perform, it would be appreciated. We should recognize Mrs. Lincoln's note, and then she perhaps would call around the next morning to see what we could do for the perWe might say we were fully equipped at that time, had all we could manage to do, but would take the man or woman in on that order and the next day set the man or woman, as the case might be, to work.

son.

Q. You mean that during the intermediate period practically all the expense, until such a person gets into the regular work of the institution, would be paid by the person sending him or her there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Practically the board is paid until they get started at work? A. Yes, sir.

Q. But with the exception of that your institution pays its way?

A. It is self-supporting.

Q. Everybody who comes there in some way or other contributes to his own expense?

A. Yes, sir; we make labor the basis of work in all cases. Q. Now, of the people who come to you do you find that any appreciable number are unable to earn enough to support themselves?

A. Oh, yes.

We have a number who come from the hospitals. Of course we have a great many whom we carry forward without any outside help whatever. We carry men and women through

for an indefinite period.

Q. Yes. Well, what percentage of the whole number would they form?

A. A very small percentage.

Q. A very small percentage?

A. A very small percentage. They don't come to us. They recognize that for which we are organized, and a man who comes to us has got some manhood in him and wants to work for what he gets.

Q. Now, I suppose there is a difference in the amount of work which the different people do, according to their bodily condition, also, isn't there? I mean that some do a whole day's work aud some only a part?

A. Oh, yes, some men who are unable to chop wood are put to cleaning windows, scrubbing in the dormitories, in the kitchen, in the boiler-room something of the kind cleaning up and fixing up in some way when they are unable to do laborious work.

Q. Have you any persons who are invalids, who are sick, in the hospital or infirmary?

A. Well, we have a regular physician for the Home and a little pharmarcy there. We have an out-door clinic for the out-side poor at a certain hour in the day, between three and four; but we don't keep patients there in any way and we send them to the hospital when we think there are any contagious diseases or anything of the kind. We don't allow any persons to remain

there who are invalids.

Q. Now, when you went down to the Long Island Home did you find that they had introduced there this test of work which you have described to the committee?

4. Well, Mr. McCaffrey said they were given all the work that it was possible for them to do. He showed me, with some degree of appreciation, as far as he possibly could, the advantages for that on the farm. He showed me where the men worked on the farm, as I told you the other night, showed me some of the men at work in the carpenter shop

Q. These men on the farm from Deer Island, weren't they? A. Some Long Island men also I understood.

Q. Out of the whole number how many Long Island men, if you know, did you see at work?

A. Well, they were gathering up hay at that time and I couldn't say. I should judge somewhere about 75 to 100 men

altogether.

2. From Deer Island and Long Island?

A. Yes, sir; they were mixed up. I saw the Deer Island men march back to the boat in the evening.

Q. Seventy-five to 100 in all, including the Deer Island men? A. I should judge so; yes. There were a number of men working downstairs where they had the line chopped off on the walks.

Q. Did you find anything there similar to your brush factory idea or these different methods of indoor occupation you have described as having at your Home?

A. No, sir; I think we talked something about that, and don't know but what the subject of the labor unions was brought up. I have been asked that I wouldn't swear whether it was down there whether they had been after me or not, and I told them Yes, in some instances I have had some inquiry from that source."

6

Q. Well, now, you saw what they call the Loafers' Hall down there?

A. Well, there were not many, if I remember rightly. There were about, perhaps, a dozen to twenty.

Q. This was in the summer that you were down there? A. The last time was the 26th of July; yes, sir. Q. The men were sitting around outside, were they? A. Some of them were walking around; yes, sir. smoking. There were one or two there that I knew. Q. What do you do in your own institution about smoking? A. Don't allow it.

Q. You don't allow it there?

A. No, sir.

Q. Why not?

Some were

A. Well, the first reason is we believe that it doesn't aid very materially the atmosphere.

Q. Yes.

A. And another thing, we try as far as possible to break the men of the habit, we think it a useless habit, and in that way wean them away from it.

Q. That is, you try to break a man from his bad habits?

A. Yes, sir; try to teach him to put his money to a better purpose.

Q. Now, in this book, this report, the 16th Annual Report of the Boston Industrial Home, which you kindly handed me, I see what purports to be a picture of the dining-room?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Which has all the look of an attractive room, with tablecloths on the tables, and you have the waiters in the customary white jackets and white aprons?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Pictures on the walls. It has the same friendly and cheerful look which a dining-room would have in a small and well-kept hotel or perhaps club. Is that a correct picture of that diningroom?

A. That is a photograph of the room itself. In regard to those tables, that shows our system in that respect. We believe in separating these men. The new-comers are put at a table by themselves, and we separate them in that way.

Q. Then there is a large number of small tables?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. With seats for four or five at the table, just as you would find them at the club?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. That is the actual condition of the dining-room?

A. Yes, sir. Come down to-morrow and you will see it.

Q. This represents it as it always is?

A. Yes, sir. We didn't expect to have the picture taken, didn't know that the man was going to take it. It was taken by flashlight.

Q. Don't you consider that giving the poor and unfortunate people who come to your institution the apparent luxury of a dining-room like that, like a club, is extravagant?

A. Extravagant?