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A. Certainly. I have performed services myself a number of times when it wasn't convenient to get a minister.

Q. What is the nature of that carriage that you say is sent out sometimes with invalids, to give them an airing?

A. A surrey

a kind of surrey wagon, two seated that is a seat in front and behind. We were out getting Christmas gifts in it yesterday. That is to say, it is not an express team it is a regular surrey wagon, made by Sargent. I bought it second band.

Q. And it is your purpose, then, always, whenever your horses are not engaged in earning money for the institution, to use them for the recreation and the health of the inmates?

A. Yes, sir would be glad always to receive calls any day to take invalids out in that way. We do. One woman I took out myself a few days ago had not been out of the house for five years, I think. She was an invalid and was not even able to go to her husband's funeral. I went to the funeral myself and represented her. That woman we took into the Home Thanksgiving. I took her in myself, and hadn't a carriage that day that I could get, so I borrowed a buggy. She could not get out otherwise — had a stiff leg and couldn't get in or out of a horse car. We do that work.

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Q. (By Ald. Lee.) Is there a top on the surrey?

A. Yes, sir; and side curtains, when it is blowing, so as to protect them from the weather.

(A recess was taken at 6.05 o'clock P.M. to 7.30 o'clock P.M.)


The committee, upon reassembling after the recess, went into executive session, and were called to order in the Aldermanic Chamber at 8.42 o'clock P.M., when the hearing was resumed, Chairman Hallstram presiding.

Mr. PROCTOr. Mr. Chairman and Gentlemen of the Committee: In spite of what has just passed, I am of the same opinion still, and I ask the Chair and the committee for an adjournment now until to morrow. The committee can now sit, as I understand it, under the chairman's rule, and would sit until half-past ten. I have not asked this committee to postpone the hearing because a witness whom I had intended to put on was not here. We have interposed no technical objections to the course of this case since the first of it, when we were endeavoring to find out the rule by which the proceedings of this committee were to be guided. We did at first, at the very outset · we opposed objections to the sort of testimony that was to be received; but as soon as this committee had decided that certain evidence was to be


received, we have since interposed no objection. Now, it seems to me that I am not asking too much on behalf of my clients when I ask for a postponement. I am sorry that I am obliged to, but it seems to me that in the performance of my duty to them I should, and I do ask it. I do not wish to put on any further witness to-night, because there exists in my mind an uncertainty as to the course which would be necessary for us to pursue with respect to the further prosecution of this case; and until that question is decided — and I understand that is to be decided to-morrow I ask that I may be allowed to stop here until that question has been decided.

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Mr. RILEY. Mr. Chairman

Ald. LEE.



Mr. RILEY. - I object, and most emphaticaliy. We have reached a stage in this investigation when every hour and every minute counts. The gentleman makes bis request without giving any reason for it, except that which is no reason at all, and which is childish, “I don't want to go on just now." It is not his wish that should prevail, nor is it mine. We are here in the performance of a great public duty. He does not pretend that his witnesses are not here and ready to go upon the stand, for he knows they are. Now, all efforts at delay from the opening of this investigation until this minute have been made by the other side, and made at times directly and at times indirectly. In the crossexamination of our witnesses in the early stages of this case time was consumed wantonly, and, in my judgment, for the purpose of delaying the investigation at every turn and every step. I doubt if any investigation will parallel this one in length of time consumed in the cross-examinations of the other side. They knew at that time that their tactics must necessarily tend to prolong the investigation, and that is just what they sought to do in order to bring it substantially to nothing. By prolonging it until the hot weather they hoped for a recess, and then when the warm weather was over they hoped that the committee would grow tired of it and shut off the witnesses for the prosecution. Now, we were shut off, substantially shut off, before we touched some of the institutions. Some of them we have not been able to touch at all, although we have testimony all ready to give this committee and they began the defence. And they have not sought to expedite matters since commencing the defence, because had they wished to end the investigation fairly and honestly, they would have put on their important rather than their unimportant witnesses. Certain charges have been made and certain testimony has been introduced in support of those charges, and the men best adapted and best equipped to meet the charges and the testimony are their clients and the men they have up to this hour kept from the stand. Not one of the Commissioners has been called. The master of the House of Correction has not been called. The superintendent at Long Island has not been called

Mr. PROCTOR. —Yes, he has.

What time to-morrow?

Any time, sir; morning, afternoon, or evening.
Mr. Riley.


Mr. RILEY. — I meant Deer Island. The superintendent Deer Island has not been called, but they have called witnesses to testify to unimportant facts, as, for instance, the witness called the other night in reference to the purchase of goods, and whose name, by the way, has not been correctly given in the newspapers ; and they adroitly drew out his testimony without asking him the simple question as to what the cost of the goods supplied was as to what the cost of those goods was, and it was only upon our cross-examination that the prices of the goods were brought to light. Of course, you know, and every sensible man knows, that the quality of the goods as a general thing depends upon the prices paid for them. We are not in the habit of purchasing genuine five-dollar gold pieces for four dollars and fifty cents, and I don't think we shall ever get into that practice or habit, because when we do somebody is going to lose money. Now, I submit that the request made to-night is not made in good faith; it is made for the purpose of delay; it is made for the purpose of waiting until to-morrow to see if a decision, which they expect this committee to make, will be in favor of them, and be made with a view to shutting off the further investigation, to shutting out further testimony in this investigation. I submit that that motion should not prevail. You know, Mr. Chairman, that we have but a very few days now until the political year closes, and every hour and every minute of the time should be given to this investigation. Not many members of the committee have been present during the many hearings we have had, and I must say that it has always been a puzzle to my simple mind, because even with my little experience at City Hall, I have noticed that whenever a financial problem was here for elucidation, whether a railroad or a bank or anything of that kind, there was always a full meeting of the Board. There seems to be something in this bank-note world of ours that attracts a full meeting whenever money is at stake. But while engaged in a far greater question, because it is something that involves humanity, the welfare of our people and our community, it seems to have been impossible to get a quorum of this Board. Now, I submit

Ald. PRESHO. Mr. Chairman, I do not think it is fair for the gentleman to make those remarks.

Mr. RILEY. Well, it is true, isn't it?

Ald. PRESHO. - No, sir, I don't think so.



Do you think we have had a quorum of the Board

right along?

Ald. PRESHO - No, sir, but my objection was as to your remarks about the interest of the Board in financial matters. I don't think any remarks reflecting upon this committee are proper from counsel. We are here in the capacity of judges, and I don't think any Court would submit to it, and I think Mr. Riley would be committed for contempt if he made any such remarks in court. I ask the chairman for a ruling on a continuation of Mr. Riley's remarks.

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Mr. RILEY. Well, sometimes I feel a good deal of contempt and perhaps I ought to be committed for it.


Mr. Riley is welcome to feel all the contempt, for me that he cares to.

Mr. RILEY. I don't know enough about you, sir, to have contempt for you, or anything else.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Riley will please argue his question. Mr. RILEY-I was saying, Mr. Chairman, when interrupted, that the hours and moments are few and we ought not to allow them to be wasted, frittered away simply to accommodate the whim of counsel on either side. It is not what I like or what Brother Proctor likes, but it is what this investigation, -- involving, as I say, public interests, it is what this investigation demands. Now, I object, I protest, and most emphatically, against any delay Let us go on until this year closes, if necessary, in order to get all the facts out and in order to get all the testimony in.. If there are abuses the public want to know it, and if there not the public want to know that, too. But nobody is going to put up with a snap judgment.

at all.

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Mr. PROCTOR. Mr. Chairman, I wish to say one word more. Brother Riley charges, as usual, that a motion made by me was not made in good faith. That, of course, I emphatically deny. I shall say no more about it. I make the motion because I believe it is for the interest of my client, and it is not against the interest of anybody else. I will go farther, I will say that if the committee in its wisdom decides to limit the time during which the defence shall put in its evidence, and that of the prosecution also, that an hour and thirty-five minutes may be cut off of our time. That is a fair proposition, because I am informed that the committee would sit if there were evidence until half-past ten. There, certainly, in that view can be no possible objection on the part of my learned and distinguished and talkative brother. Now, the remarks that are made with respect to other things, with respect to my hopes or fears, are entirely immaterial. The course to be decided, upon is to be decided by this committee. If it is decided that this investigation is to be carried over until another year, very well and good. It is easy to see that our course would be one thing. If it is decided that the bearing must close with this municipal year, our course must decidedly be another. Until that is decided it seems to me, in view of the offer which I make, that it is not asking too much to ask the favor which I ask.

Mr. RILEY. Your witnesses are here to-night, aren't they? (No response.)

(The committee conferred a few moments.)

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Proctor, would you be ready and willing to go on to-morrow?

Mr. PROCTOR. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The Chair will adjourn this committee

Mr. RILEY. What time to-morrow, Mr. Chairman?

The CHAIRMAN. At 4 o'clock.

Mr. RILEY. — I cannot go on to-morrow until the evening, but I can make up for it to-night, and

The CHAIRMAN. The committee can go on, Mr. Riley. The committee has adjourned until 4 o'clock to-morrow afternoon.

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Mr. RILEY. — I didn't know but you would consult the convenience of counsel.


(Adjourned at 9.02 o'clock P.M. until Friday afternoon, December 21, at 4 o'clock.)

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