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Q. About how long?
A. Well, they were various times, sometime a weck, sometimes two weeks,
Q. Sometimes a week without a session ?
d. No; it is a book two or three years old, and I have not seen it for a good while.
Q. Now, what you say, then, is, that whenever there was an executive session the Board requested your attendance, and you did attend ?
A. I cannot say that quite, because I think I won't be sure, but my impression is that they did business without my presence; but they called me in to say what had been done. That is, they would have a discussion and would reach some conclusion when I was not present, but they would call me in to say that such a vote had been passed, or to make a record of such a vote.
Q. That is, now and again they held executives sessions when you were not present?
4. They did business when I was not present.
Q. Then not being present, of course you did not read the recorils of the previous meeting?
4. I could not have read anything if I was not present.
Q. So that they did hold meetings when no record of the previous meeting was read?
A. I don't know how you would reason that. They could do business without my presence, and tell me, and that made
my record of it made it a meeting, of course.
Q. But who read the record of the previous meeting?
Mr. RILEY. - I didn't say that you did. You know that I wouldn't say anything of that kind, and nobody that knows you would.
Ald. LEE. The Commissioners are the only parties who are concerned in this matter, and they could adjourn when they met without holding an executive session ? Is that right?
The WITNESS. I had nothing to do with it.
Mr. RILEY. What you mean, Mr. Alderman, is, that this witness was not a Commissioner.
Ald. LEE. — I mean to say that the Commissioners were the parties who governed this matter, and that they could adjourn without holding an executive session.
Q. (By Mr. RILEY.) Now, they would bring to you the result of the meeting ?
A. They would send for me.
Q. And when would you write out the record for that meeting -- the meeting when you were not present?
A. Immediately upon being notified of it.
A. Generally in the presence of ill, by the chairman. Sometimes the vote would be brought to me by either of the commissioners.
Q. You would put it on the small book right off ?
Q. When would you transfer it to the large book?
d. Immediately after the meeting held where the records were read.
Q. Have there been instances of where a week elapsed?
A, Not after it was approved. It was put in the small book, and was put from it into the large book immediately after the approval of it. If it was
Q. But have there been instances where the record on the smaller book was not transferred on to the larger book for weeks ?
A. Yes. They were never transferred until they were approved.
Q. That is not what I am getting at. Sometimes a record would remain on the smaller book for weeks before it went on to the larger?
1. As long as it was not approved.
A. I don't think it was ever more than a month — I don't know that. Q. Probably not.
I don't know that. Q. Now, do the records show that at each executive session all the members were present ?
A. The record shows this — that if any Commissioner at any time during the business hours of the day appeared at the room, he was to be marked as being present that day, on an agreement with the Commissioners that every man should be marked present if he appeared and took any part in the business that day. He might be at one of the institutions and not at the Board rooms until late in the afternoon, ou something like that, and the rule was to mark them present; but if I understand your question - I think I do, and I want to answer it clearly
Q. Well, I didn't know that it called for such a long preface as that.
A. Well, talkativeness is catching, like everything else.
Q. Well, now, I wish you would answer this question : Do the records show that at each executive session all the Commissioners were present ?
it. If they were present, it does.
Q. (Continuing.) – giren just now, that if a Commissioner was absent during the executive session which was held at eleven o'clock under Rule 2, as you construed it, that Commissioner if he should put in an appearance at any time during the day, ils, for instance, at 6 P.M., your record would show that he was present at the executive session. Am I right?
4. The record would show that they were present whenever they appeared any time during business hours, but not quite so late as six.
Ald. LEE. That woulil be a violation of the ordinances, wouldn't it? Five o'clock is the closing. hour.
The WITNESS. (Continuing.) But under the direction of the Commissioners, any member of the Commission who was present at any hour of the day during business hours was marked present at that business meeting ; but at any meeting at which the records were ever read,
none of the Commissioners were ever marked present unless they were present actually.
Q. You see that this multiplies words and takes time. We are reaching the end now. I don't wish to interrupt you, but at the same time I do wish to make my question so simple that we can proceed rapidly. Let us understand each other. The executive sessions were at 11 o'clock in the forenoon?
d. That was the order.
Q. And if that order was lived up to, that is the hour that the sessions were held ?
al. Yes, sir.
1. Various times, – long enough to have the records read and to have any business introduced.
Q. But averaging the short meetings with the longer ones, about whạt length of time would be occupiel by the meetings, about an hour?
a. Oh, 10, rirely iis long as that.
Q. Now, we will assume that a meeting begins at 11 and ends at 11.30, where some of the Commissioners were absent. If any of these Commissioners put in an appearance before the closing hour, 5 P.M., then your record would show that all the members were present?
A. If they had an executive session at which they were present, they were marked present, and if they were absent, and I was there, they were marked absent.
Q. What did you mean by saying that if the Commissioners wasn't there during an executive session, and came in at any time during the day, he was marked present?
I didn't say that — or didn't mean to. Q. What did you mean by that ? 4. I didn't mean to say that, or didn't say it, I think.
Q. What do you mean by an absent Commissioner coming in and being marked present ?
A. At any time during the day.
Q. (By Mr. RILEY.) What is the use of adding anything to his words? Now, answer this question : If any Commissioner came in at any time during business hours, what would you put down on the book?
Q. All the member's present.
Q. Yes; although one of the members would not get to the oflice until 5 o'clock? Is that true?
4. Yes, sir.
1. In the beginning of the Commission from their first appointment.
Q. Do your records show the adoption of any such rule ?
A. When the first Commission was formed, the rule was adopted that if any member of the Commission was present at any time during business hours, he should be marked as present.
Q. Who told you to do it?
Å. The first three Commissioners, Dr. Jenks, Mr. Prescott, and Mr. Laforme. All three wished to be marked present.
Q. Now, for instance, if only one of the Commissioners was present at the 11 o'clock executive session, and the other two Commissioners didn't get in until 5 o'clock or 4 o'clock in the afternoon, yet the records would show that all were present?
A. When an exccutive session was held ?
Q. Well, what part of it will you give to me and what part of it will you put against me?
A. By an executive session" is meanta session at which the records were read. Whatever is stated in that book, and whoever is marked as present or absent at that executive session, was present or absent That record is correct, and no man was marked present when he was absent, when the records were read.
Q. But if a man came in late, you put him down as present?
Q. If a Commissioner came in at any time during an executive session, would not he be marked present ?
I think you said so. You said “ Yes" about something, but I don't know what about.
Q. Oh, I said that there is no doubt about it.
Mr. PROCTOR. Well, I am not so much like a woolly dog as you are, anyhow. (Laughter.)
Mr. RILEY. No, you are more like a yellow one. (Laughter.)
Q. (By Mr. RILEY.) Now, general, if they came in at any time before the closing hour, you would mark them in your record as being present?
d. Not the day of an executive session, when I read the records.
Q. That is just what I desire to get at. Now, will you kindly turn to October 20, 1891.
Ald. LEE. - Well, I would like to ask just one question or two about that second rule.
Mr. RILEY. Well, you will confuse me pretty well before I get through, if you interrupt.
Ald. LEE. Well, I ought to get a gold medal from some Humane Society if I confuse you.
Mr. RILEY. Take care you don't get a leather one.
Q. (By Ald. LEE.) I would like to have you read that rule, so that the chairman of the committee and the members may get hold of it that second rule.
A. (Reading :)
All business concerning the work of the Commission shall be presented to the Commission at a daily executive session, to be held at 11 o'clock A.M.
Ald. LEE. That don't apply to executive sessions at all. It says that all business shall be presented to the Commissioners
Mr. RILEY. At executive sessions.
executive." The WITNESS. Yes, - at a daily executive session." (Laughter.)
Ald. LEE. Well, now, that is all fright. We will suppose that it does. Isn't it possible that the Commissioners should meet and then immediately adjourn without doing any business?
Mr. RILEY. Well, has the time for arguing come?
Ald. LEE. Well, I thought that you had argued it pretty well, and I thought it was about time for the committee to have something to say. I would like to ask one more question.
Q. (By Ald. LEE.) Were all the executive sessions held at 11 o'clock
A. They were not.
Q. So that your reply to the Alderman is that they have been broken? Am I right?
d. That is a matter for the committee to decide.
Ald. LEE. — That is what records are made for, you know – to break. Sometimes records are made to break, and they are broken.
Mr. RILEY Well, if they are good ones they should not be.
Q. Do you find anything there in the way of a report pertaining to an officer in one of the institutions named James White ?
A. Yes, sir.
The following report of the committee on case of Officer James White was accepted and adopted :
(+14 BEACON STREET, October 20, 1891. “The committee in conjunction with the superintendent of the institutions at Deer Island have investigated the charges upon which Officer James White was discharged, and found the evidence to be unreliable, and that nothing was done by said officer to warrant his discharge. He is an officer without flaw in his previous record at the institution, and the committee therefore recommends that he be this day reinstated without loss of pay, and that this report be forwarded to the Civil Service Commission."
Q. Was that report adopted ?
A. It was. I read that. (Reading :) The following report of the committee on case of Officer James White was accepted and adopted.
Q. Now, will you turn to March 2, 1891 — I think it is page 250 ?
A. You seem to be familiar with these records, after all, don't you?
Mr. RILEY.- Well, by proxy.