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and I thought possibly there was something you wished to say in explanation ?

A. Well, the pump was purchased sometime before it was connected but we were without water. That was, I think, the longest period we were without water, and then we had not secured an appropriation for putting in the stand-pipes and hose in connection therewith. Meanwhile the smaller Knowles pump was used, the pump of which I spoke this morning.

Q. That would throw a stream over the building?

A. Oh, yes, indeed, over the building.

Q. Now, when was it that the large pump was connected?

A.

Just when I don't know, Mr. Proctor. I think it was sometime last spring or summer; and I would say here, Mr. Proctor, that the large pump was placed there for the purpose of connection with the stand-pipes in the building and controlling the water-supply in those stand-pipes.

Q. Yes, I see. You were asked about the drill for paupers. In the summer you say you have there but few able-bodied paupers anyway? A. Very few indeed.

Q. In the winter there is a more or less floating population under the law as it now is?

A. Yes, sir; they come and go. That is the reason why I believe the drill should be by the officers and under their care.

Q. That is, you say there would not be much use in drilling a man if he went away?

A. No. Any assistance from the inmates would be auxiliary.
Q. What did you say the cost of the reservoir was?

A. Well, I should say it would cost, upon second thought, perhaps $1,500, but that is only a rough estimate, because there were so many things. It has been in process of construction two years nearly, a year and a half, and from time to time we have bought this, and the other. At a rough estimate I should say it would cost $1,500.

Q. Was the resevoir begun at the time you went into the Board.
A. No, sir.

Q. How soon after you went into the board?

A.

Q.

In the fall of that year.

1892 ?

A. Yes, sir; we secured the survey and in the spring of 1893 we began the digging.

Q. Now, as I understand it you went to the Legislature and advocated this change in the law with respect to the power to make the paupers work?

A. I did.

Q. And you believe in it ?

A. I do. I believe it is necessary to have some law.

Q. I suppose if the Legislature had passed a law you would have endeavored to have it enforced as far as in you lay?

A. We should most gladly have availed ourselves of it. Probably this incoming Legislature will do something in that line.

Q. Now, something has been said about the system of passes. I suppose, Mr. Pilsbury, that even if you did refuse a pass to the paupers to come to Boston oftener than one in thirty days or sixty days, a man could demand his discharge and get it?

A. He could.

Q. And would there be any law to prevent him from going away? A. We could not hold him.

Q. And if he came here to Boston and indulged in what has been described here as debauches, etc., if he stood in need of immediate relief he could again come down to the island ?

A. He could, under the law.

Q. And if it happened to be the next day he could come just the same ?

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Q. And your Board would be obliged to receive him ?

A. Certainly.

Q. So that that comes to pretty nearly the same thing as giving passes when they want them ?

A. And it would seem to make an extra amount of clerical labor that was unnecessary.

Q. Mr. Pilsbury, I believe you stated that the arm-chairs, about which there has been some considerable talk in the newspapers and elsewhere, were on the wharf at the time the suggestion was made by Mrs. Lincoln that you should get them?

A. Yes, sir. Mrs. Lincoln and her party came down in the tugboat, ahead of the regular boat, and I came down on the regular boat, the "J. Putnam Bradlee," and the chairs were on the steamer.

Q. (By Mr. LINCOLN.) What chairs do you refer to ?

A. The men's arm-chairs.

Mr. BRANDeis. Mr. Pilsbury is speaking about arm-chairs for the men's infirmary last March.

The WITNESS.
Mr. BRANDEIS.

the year before.
Mr. PROCTOR.

Yes, sir.

The chairs so much talked about were the chairs of

Yes, but those chairs, as I understand it, were taken down here to the wharf without any knowledge of the Commissioners. Mr. LINCOLN. — Oh, no.

Q. (By Mr. PROCTOR.) How, is that, Mr. Pilsbury, if you know? A. The first knowledge that the Commissioners had that the armchairs

Q. The rocking-chairs.

A.

The rocking-chairs, I should say, were on the wharf was from the captain of the boat, who telephoned to ask if he should take them down. I don't know whether he telephoned or asked personally, I won't say which.

Q. That is the first the Commissioners knew about them?

or

A. The first the Commissioners knew anything about the chairs as such. The Commissioners knew that Mrs. Lincoln had written asked for contributions to enable her to purchase rocking-chairs. Q. Yes.

A. And had acknowledged the receipt of a certain sum of money; but when she purchased them she sent them to the wharf without reference to the Commission, and afterwards came to the office.

Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) That is, the same day came to the office? A. Well, I don't know - may have been the same day, the same day that the chairs were sent to the wharf.

Q. (By Mr. PROCTOR.) But it was afterwards?

A. It was afterwards. The Commissioners were not aware that the chairs were going to the wharf. That is the point I want to make clear. Q. Well, at the time they were sent to the wharf had they been offered to the Commissioners ?

A. No, not as far as my knowledge goes.

Q. You never knew of butter being bought in your time at eleven cents a pound, I believe, you said?

4. No, sir. Mr. RILEY. The WITNESS.

price.

Mr. PROCTOR.

Dr. Newell.

He doesn't buy anything, he says.

I never knew of it being bought, Mr. Riley, at that

There is only one man who ever knew that that is

The WITNESS. — Perhaps that was butterine or oleomargarine.

Q. (By Mr. PROCTOR.) From whom did you buy your meat or make contract to buy meat?

A. Competitive bids this year Mr. S. S. Learnard.

Q. A well-known, reputable dealer in Boston, isn't he?

4. I think any one would hesitate to assault his reputation as an honorable man.

Q. Well, it is a well-known house?

A.

A well-known house.

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A. Yes, sir, I do.

Q. What do you say about that?

A. It is of good quality.

We buy beef of Learnard.

Q. Since you have been Commissioner what do you say about the butter ?

A. Of fair quality — not as good butter as I buy for my table, but a fair quality of butter.

Q. Not new Boston Creamery?

A. No, sir.

Q. But a fair quality of butter?

A. It is such a quality of butter as the citizens who live outside the institution of about the grade of life the inmates represent would purchase, and even perhaps a higher class of people.

Q. You say there was a riot down at Deer Island

that is, what my

Brother Riley calls a riot. He calls everything a riot, I think.

Mr. RILEY. I never called you a riot.

Q. (By Mr. PROCTOR.) But there was what he calls a riot in August, 1893 ?

A. No, sir the summer of '93, I think. I don't know whether it was in the month of August.

Q. That is the only one that occurred there since you have been a Commissioner?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And that, I believe, you said, was on account of small potatoes in the chowder ?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. The prisoners down there didn't think it good enough

was that

it? Do you know what the quality of the potatoes was, whether they were new or old ones?

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Q. In August?

A. New, and quite a small potato -- good but small, much smaller than the potatoes they were accustomed to getting and they made a little fuss about it. It was settled very quickly and promptly.

Q.

Well, that is the only trouble they have had down there ?

A. That is the only trouble.

Q. Well, now, something was asked you about a school down there where Fulton and Beavins, if those are the names, were the officers, the teachers?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What are the facts about that ?

A.

Why, the facts are as I stated. I can state it, perhaps, a little more fully.

Q. I think you can, if you are allowed.

that is,

A. It was supposed that when vacation time had passed about the 1st of September that we should be able to go into that Parental School at Roxbury. This delay on account of the drainage was not anticipated to the extent that it has proven to be. It has proven to be a great delay. After consultation with the Chief Justice and with the probation officers, the Board decided that it would be better to liberate one at a time these truant boys, and for this reason unfortunately many of the truant boys who are sent to the Truant School should properly be sent to the Reformation School.

Q Well, but that is the fault of the Court ?

A. Yes, that is the fault of the Court, but the truants pure and simple were all we wanted out at the Parental School. Therefore we thought it would be well to begin anew. There was no occasion for the services of those teachers after vacation time. There was nothing for them to do, and we could not transfer them to that school because. as we had interpreted the statute, the School Committee have much to do with the appointment of the teachers for that school. Therefore there was nothing for these gentlemen to do. Just when they went I don't know, and that is why I said to Mr. Riley that I would have to refer to the records to state. But I did draw an inference from Mr. Riley's question that he felt — for which there is not the slightest foundation — that Mr. Fulton's discharge or Mr. Beavins' discharge, or resignation, whatever it may have been, was based upon any action in regard to this investigation. Q. That is, what Fulton testified here or the quality of his testimony had nothing whatever to do with it?

A. Nothing whatever, and I never heard the suggestion before that

moment. never

Q. Well, wouldn't you have Fulton down there now in some capacity if he wanted to remain ?

A. Why, yes, indeed.

Q. Now, you were asked something with respect to hoisting the flag and notifying the people down there. What were the facts about that?

A. It was formerly the custom on the boat when it left the wharf to hoist a flag on the flag-staff at the fore.

Q. You mean on the boat ?

A. On the boat; and in that way they would know the Commissioners were coming down. But that isn't done to-day.

Q. Well, is that done only with the Commissioners, or the Commissioners and other people?

4. Only the Commissioners, as far as I know. But that was abolished sometime ago. Then it was the custom until within a few months ago or within a year, to hoist a flag at Deer Island when the Commissioners arrived there, and that was another notification possibly might have been construed as such and so orders were given to fly that flag all day, which I think is very much better.

Q. Yes, I see. Well, at the same time wasn't an order given to all the islands?

A. Yes, sir, it was to Rainsford, Long and Deer islands alike.

Q. They have a receiving tomb at Deer Island ?

4. They have.

Q. One or more?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Well, now, the bodies at death are placed in the receiving tombs, are they not?

A.

Yes, sir.

Q. And as you understand it they are kept there for a greater or less period of time so that the relatives may call for them if they wish? A. That is the understanding.

Q. And as you understand the rule they can call for them at any time within six months?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, as to services just before, at, or after death, Mr. Pilsbury, do you know what the practice is at Deer Island ?

A. I can't say that I do. I know that I have been told that services are held, have been held.

Q. Funeral services?

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that they have been held, but from my own knowl

edge and observation I cannot say.

Q. Well, you understand that they are held?

A. Yes, sir; I understand they are held.

Q.

(By Mr. BRANDEIS.) Where is this, Long Island?

A. Deer Island.

Q. (By Mr. PROCTOR.) What did you say about selling coal, Mr. Pilsbury, to the Metropolitan Sewerage? Something has been said about it.

A. I think it has been sold during my time I think it was last year some coal to the Metropolitan Sewerage Commission. There was quite a stringency in coal and we you may remember it

had a surplus, and we sold it and got our pay for it, and it was sold at a profit.

Q. All sold at a profit

A.

All sold at a profit.

Q. And the bills were turned over once a month to the City Collector?

A. To the City Collector.

Q. The same as other bills?

A. The same as other bills.

Q. And did you hear that the bills were not paid by the Metropolitan Sewerage Commission?

A.

No, sir.

Q. As far as you know, they have been all paid?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you know of any unpaid bills for coal during your incumbency as a Commissioner?

A. None.

Q. Or for anything else that has been furnished?

A. No, sir; I do not.

Q. Well, you knew, I suppose, that Corporation Counsel Richardson said there was no objection to this incidental furnishing of such things for the accommodation largely of the Metropolitan Sewerage Commission and others?

4. I had heard it.

Q.

You had heard that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And whatever was done, was, as far as your official action was concerned, in view of that opinion?

A. In accordance with that opinion.

Q. You thought as long as you got a profit out of it and the Corporation Counsel said it was all right, it was all right?

A. We did.

Q. Now, you have been asked with respect to the drainage for the Parental School at Roxbury. It occurred to me that perhaps you were not given the opportunity to explain that you wished. State whatever you wish. Had you expected to get into the Parental School before

now?

A. We had. But the whole management and the construction and all the contracts made were made through the Architect's Department. Q. Well, you took what they gave you?

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Q. And as far as drainage is concerned, what have you to say as to that ?

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