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spoken of it together. Then he says, "Every floor in the institu-
tion and hospital is scrubbed once a week.” I wulerstand that it
is at present, but it was 110t when the report of the visitors was
made last winter.

Q. (By Mr. PROCTOR.) What page is that?

1. The next page, 2876. He says, “ Every floor in the institution and hospital is scrubbed once a week, swept from once to lialf a dozen times a day. The dining-room floor and halls are scrubbed three times a week.” Well, they may be now, but that was not the case last winter. I dou't deny that it is the case now. Certainly the building and the institution were very much cleaner last sprig than in the winter when we first went down there.

Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) What page do you say that is ?

A. 2876. Then on page 2880 Dr. Cogswell says in reference to Di. Parker : " I sliould like to have Mrs. Evans recall to her iniud a certain conversation I had with her relative to Dr. Parker on her third visit to Long Island." I recall that conversation very well. Dr. Putnam was sitting near me. It was about the third time I had been to Long Island, and in my mind the physicians there -- Dr. Cogswell, Dr Parker, and anyboily else, stood about on a level. I said to Dr. Cogswell, “What do you think of Dr. Parker? Does he give satisfaction?” Dr. Cogswell said, " I don't know. I haven't been very much pleased with Dr. Parker lately, because he bas not reported to me the shortage of milk.” That is all he said. He says here, on this same page, 6 When Dr. Dever left us I considered that Dr. Parker was entitled to a trial as first assistant, so he was appointed. Fearing, however, after some litile observation, tbat, even as my critic's say, · He has a heart which is greater tban his talent.' I took unto myself some duties for a while which previously had not been considered necessary.” Well, he took po duties to himself, as far as I have been able to discover, until May. During the winter when we were down there Dr. Parker was in entire control of the hospital. I never heard that Dr. ('ogswell interfered at all at that time, and it was in May, after the investigation got well along, after Dr. Parker had been on the witness-staod, that Dr. Parker told me that Dr. Cogswell had displaced bim in the hospital. But before that Dr. Parker bad bad a free hand there when the Board of Visitors were there. A part of the time Dr. Cogswell was sick, to be sure, but he

not sick all the time. Then Dr. Cogswell says

Dr. Putnam has said that supply of instruments was small. I bave not any doubt that the instruments he was shown were few in number, and with a purpose.” I was with Dr. Putnam when he looked at those instruments. The week before I had been in the operating-room and bad looked at them myself. It so happened that when I looked at them I pulled open all the drawers and cupboards so that I could see them all, and Dr. Putman saw them all, too, because I saw them with him. Now, there are a number of little things like that that I have made notes about. I don't know whether the committee care about them.

are about them. They are trivial, small matters,

was

on

page 2884:

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and I don't know that they amount to much in themselves. I don't know whether the committee want me to go through them or will simply take that for the whole.

Q. (By the CHAIRMAN.) The committee are ready to hear anything you may offer.

A. I don't care. It is only a question of veracity — he says one thing and I say directly the other. You have simply got to make up your minds what you will believe, because we are not both speaking the truth in a number of cases. In a number of cases he says one thing and I say the other. Dr. Cogswell talked at very great length about the denying of requisitions, and showed from his own books and papers that there were very few requisitions denied. The denial of the requisitions that I heard the most about, were those that the doctors made upon the storerooms of the institution. They would order the things from the storeroom anıl they wouldn't be given out, and everything seemed to be slack, and the doctors and purses seemed to be out of gear, asking why they didn't get them, and the requisitions didn't appear, and I spoke to Dr. Cogswell about the matter, and he said that yes, there was trouble. I was told there that there was constant complaint in regard to shortage. We heard that everywhere that there wasn't any lack of supplies at the island, but that the sup. plies weren't given out. Dr. Cogswell said in his statement, " To show that I do not discourage the use of expensive drugs when they are the best know for the purpose,”

and then he gives a lot of statistics.

Q. (By Mr. PROCTOR.) On what page?

A. 2886. I am told that the drug he makes so much flourish about as costing $102.40 a pound was bought in exceedingly small quantities. So that it may be agreed that it is not expensive. However, I need not speak of that. Then he speaks about the lights, on page 2887. I don't know that I care whether they have electric lights or gas, but I should think they could put shades over the electric lights at night so as not to discommode the patients. Then on the next page he speaks of James Murray, and says he was entirely familiar with the cases at the hospital. I think if that had been the case it would not bave been possible for him to cut off James Murray's milk. If he liad known about the case it could not have happened, if he had been a constant attendant at the hospital it could not have happened, because he would have known his serious condition.

Mr. PROCTOR. This by the way, is mere argument.
The WITNESS. Well, you can leave it out. But that is a fact
he admits that James Murray's milk was taken away.
Mr. PROCTOR. - I don't understand that he does.
The WITNESS. Did to me personally, anyway, in conversation.
Mr. BRANDEIS. He admits it there, doesn't he?
Mr. PROCTOR. No, not in his argument, as you call it.
The WITNESS. I think he did in personal conversation with

He says on the page before : * In regard to changing diets, to make them plentiful or for any other reason, prior to May 29, 1894, when I assumed active control of our patients, I never had

ne.

we

more

done it but once, and that was on August 16, 1893, when it was done in a perfectly proper manner.”

Mr. BRANDEIS. He says also that if it was done .- he doesn't deny that it was done.

Mr. REED. He didn't say that he did it, however.

The WITNESS. - I think there is no question that it was done and on that day, August 10, and all Dr. Cogswell said was that he had not meant to do it. I gave that in my testimony. Well, if he had been familiar with the patients he couldn't have done it. He says on

the same

page :

The cut of August 16, could not have been made in the interest of economy, as

far as milk was concerned, for at that time had much

than we actually needed." Nobody questioned that there was enongh, and I understoood that there was milk on the island, and that the patients did not get it. Of course it wasn't economy, it was bad management. Then ou the next page, 2889, it says in regard 10 the burying, that “When we first began to bury I told the deputy, Mr. McCaffrey, as I have every deputy since, that he was to have the entire charge of burying bodies and be held responsible for it; that he was to go to the cemetery, see the bodies placed in the graves, take the pumbers, come back and give them to the clerk, whose duty it was to enter the facts in the burial book." Well, the day Mr. Farmer went down to the graveyard, and saw those three bodies lying uncovered, he spoke to Smith the deputy and I talked to Dr. Cogswell afterwards about it, and I think neither of them said it was Smith's duty to have been there or have looked out for it. Smith said, “ I told the inmates to bury them,” and it was never claimed at that time that it was the duty of any officer to be on hand. Farther on in the same paragraph Dr. Cogswell says in reference to those graves not covered in : “ Wasn't it because one of the men ordered to fill the graves had told him they had not done it, knowing that the deputy could hardly find it out before morning?" Of course if it was the deputy's duty to be on hand to see that it was done, he could have been there. These things are so small that they seem hardly worth speaking about. Then Dr. Cogswell gives quite a lengthy explanation on page 2895 of the apparent confusion between the death records of Long and Raiusford islands. He explained his books here in a way that showed quite clearly how that had arisen at the time, as referred to in our report.

We said there was apparent confusion in the records of Long and Rainsford islands, but the fact was that at the time Dr. Cogswell did not know it, and when be found out he had it rectified. I think his testimony shows that previous 10 the first of January he was not conversant with the way the books had been kept, and when he found out he started a new set of books to straighten it out. So all the explapation of how it happened was not to the point. We had said in our report that it happened because of confusion of the records. He says on page 2899 : 6. Mrs Evans testified to considerable extent on our conversations on the milk question. She never seemed to me to be able to understand it, or able to grasp the fact that trouble over the milk supply could come from more than one causc.”

I certainly did have a very hard time to understand the matter. I think I can understand a plain statement, but I did not get a plain statement until Dr. Cogswell made one before the committee, and that did not agree quite with his statements made to me. The first time I talked with him about the milk was January 1. At that time he said to me he didn't know what the trouble was.

Now he gives several explanations here of what the trouble had been previous to Jaduary 1, and said he had corrected the trouble finally un December 27. I have no doubt he had, but he said to nie on January 1, that he didn't know what the trouble was. I asked him to show me his records, to see if I could find what the trouble had been. He showed me the blue slips you have seen here, the slips for December, which sbowed very frequently a shortage in the milk delivered at the hospital. I commented on that and said, ". Let me see the slips back of December," and he said that previous to December it hacın't been recorded on the slips what milk was delivered ; but apparently lie had it recorded, because you have had the slips here. But he told me be didn't. I didn't look through the records to see whether he was telling the truth, hecause he said he had no record of' it. Then on page 2899, speaking of the Board of Visitors, he says that their combined stay was only fifteen hours and five minutes.” It seuns to me that that is a good stay and that people can find out a good many things in that time. On the same page he says: “Mrs. Evans testified to considerable extent on our conversations on the milk question.” Oh, I read that, I beg your pardou. Of course there is no use fighting about these milk statements of Dr. Cogswell. He undoubtedly had a good deal of trouble about the inilk, and conceded that he had trouble. But the fact remains that he has made statements about the matter in half a dozen different ways, and he has patched the thing up here so that it makes a coherent and consistent appearing story. It does not agree with what he said to me, bowever. What he said to me was that there was some trouble and he didn't know what it was, and he said a week later that he had always known what it

I presume he had always knowo, but he didn't think it worth while to explain to me. Theu on page 2901 there is a difference between Dr. Cogswell and myself as to å date, the 20th or the 22d of March. Dr. Cogswell was correct in that matter and I was incorrect in the date.

It was apparently the 22d that I had that talk with him. I have found a letter which shows apparently that it was, so I am incorrect there. Further down in that paragraphi, talking about flannel, he says, "If there was any questiou in her mind as to the issuing of the fannel why not go to our book herself and find the true facts, or else say nothing ?” I did what I thought was much better. I went direct to the superintendent himself and asked him. The fact was that I was down there on the 8th of January going through the women's infirmary ward and they tolil me they had no flannel, and I went and spoke to Dr. Cogswell about it and he said it had been given out, and I said the matron said she had ordered the Aannel, but that it had not been given out. Then Dr. Cogswell told

was.

I said,

me that it would be given to them. Dr. Cogswell in his report says that it was given out January 8, and the fact is that I asked for it January 8.

The difference between is is that Dr. Cogswell says it had been given out at that time, January 8, and I say it was on the 8th, that it may have been that same afternoon. Then he says, “I don't believe any one is fitted to be on a Buard of Visitors who will go around telling the suborilinates in an institution that she is going to make the superintendent smart for what he has said.” I never made any such remark to anybody never ; "who, after being legislated out of office, will go and ask officers if they have any reports to make to the committee.” I pever did that. After I had been, só to speak, legislated out of office I did go down to Long Island, because I bad a very good reason 10 go if I told you all about it, but I won't bother you with that, and I walked along with Mr. Stinson, the deputy, with whom I was on very friendly terms. The reason I went down was because I understood there was a very base plot - I can call it nothing else — against Dr. Parker's character, and in walking up to the hospital with Stinson he said to me in a very meaning voice, "You had better take care not to believe all that you hear clown here.? I said, " I am quite well aware of that fact.” lle saiil,

You hird better be careful and not believe too much." “If you have anything to tell me, Mr. Stinson, I will be glad to hear it. He said nothing, and that is all my conversation with him after I was out of office. This goes on,

66 who will take the word of a criminal innate against an institution in a matter suisceptible of proof, without looking up the l'acts.” I never took the word of any inmate upon any subject — a criminal inmate or otherwise without looking up the facts. In fact, not one thing that the Board of Visitors testified to either on the witness-stand or in the special report of February 16, or in their final report, rested on the testimony of an inmate.

Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) How far does it rest upon the testimony of Dr. Parker and Mr. McCaffrey ?

A. Rests upon the testimony of McCaffrey not at all. McCaffrey came to see me once at my request. I sent for him. I then took him to sve Dr. Putnam, so he saw him that same night. I then asked him to go and see Mr. Farmer, and he called at my liouse and told me he liad an engagement and couldn't, and I sair him once in a while in the street, and that is all. None of the other members of the committee saw him at all.

Q. At what time in the investigation of the special committee was Mr. McCaffrey seen – the beginning, middle, or end?

A. Sometime in January I saw him first, and I didn't see him again until I saw him several times in the street, and we decided that, as long as he had left the island before we began to investigate, it was not worth while to bother with things he couldn't testify to that had been before our eyes. Then the ovly thing that really rests on the testimony of Dr. Parker is the fact that inmates were clischarged in a contagious stage of disease, and Dr. Cogswell says they were not. With that exception there is nothing that rests on Dr. Parker's eviilence, except with corroborative evi.

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