dence of other people. In regard to every other thing that Dr. Parker testified to we also had the evidence of Dr. Dever, Dr. Sullivan, Dr. Murphy, Dr. Noyes, Mr. Morphy, of all three nurses, Mrs. McKenney, of the infirmary ward; Miss Thayer, of the nursery ward, and a woman whose name I have forgotten, and Dr. Putman talked to the cook in the hospital. We had the records of Dr. Cogswell, and had his own statements, and had our own eyes to see things. Dr. Cogswell says I took the word of "a criminal inmate against an institution in a matter susceptible of proof, without looking up the facts." and that I refused to tell the superintendent of charges made against him at a time when witnesses were handy to refute them, knowing full well that at another time these same witnesses might not be within reach." Well, the only report that criticised Long Island in detail was made February 16, and as far as I know, everybody there had been there during our time. I don't know of any changes at all that had taken place there.

Q. You did talk with Dr. Cogswell about various matters? A. I talked about everything I could. He was sick a good part of the time. I had great long lists of things that I tried to get him to answer, and I would ask him about something and he would give a long answer, take a long time to say it, and then not answer the question, and I tried in a polite, conversational way to bring him back to the point, and I found it was very hard to get him to give exact information, and the next time I would ask him he would say something different. His answers seemed to be given with a view to shutting us up, and it was very difficult to get anything out of him. Then I had a long list of thirtytwo questions that I wanted him to answer, and I knew he was sick, and I got his wife to let me speak to him for a few moments. I felt like a perfect brute, that it was dreadful, because the man was sick, and then I asked him in regard to the matters under discussion, and would have asked him more if they had occurred to me at the time. I said, “Dr. Cogswell, I want to go around and have an opportunity to see things as they are here. I shall listen to everything that is said to me and try to bring everything that is said to me to you." It was my idea to go around his institution just the same as I would like any one to do if it were mine, and come to him for an explanation. When I first heard in regard to the flannel, I came to his office straight. I did not look at the books, but came to him direct. When I heard about the milk, I called on him directly. When patients. complained about the hospital, I went to him and tried to get his explanation every time. He says on page 2901, "In talking with the Board of Visitors I may have erred in not entering into minute details." He certainly did. They seemed, however, not to be especially desirous of talking with me, but preferred to get their information elsewhere." That may have seemed so to Dr. Cogswell, but I certainly was very desirous of talking to him and learning from him all I could. I would like to have talked with him more, but I got very little satisfaction. He reads a letter which makes me seem ridiculous. I felt silly when it was But the fact is I did not notice whether there was

read.

gas or electric light in the building. The fact is that I was speaking about their being left in darkness there and asked for an explanation from Dr. Cogswell and Dr. Jenks. Dr. Cogswell, I think, said they turned it off at night on account of the inmates, and Dr. Jenks assumed that there was water in the gas, and I assumed that it was lit in that way and spoke of it. Some one spoke of it being lighted by gasoline, and I didn't know but the gas-pipes might be out of order. I am not a very good observer of such things. It was a pretty stupid letter that I wrote, awkwardly expressed, and I felt cheap, I must confess, to think I had written such a stupid letter and so stupidly expressed. But what I want to say is that in no case have I relied upon what has been said by inmates. I have listened to what they said and have never treated it as evidence. Mr. Reed in his opening argument said the Board of Visitors had received letters and daily visits from people at the islands. I received two visits and one letter, and no other member of the Board, as far as I know, received any. Mr. McCaffrey did not seek us with his testimony. We sent for him once at my request, and he couldn't go to see Mr. Farmer. He did not seek us at all. Dr. Parker did not seek us. After I had been a member of the Board of Visitors for about a month, and had visited Long Island, I sent for him and asked him some questions, and Dr. Putnam wrote and asked him to call on him. When I first saw Dr. Parker he was very reserved and didn't say very much. He answered the questions apparently candidly. After going down there several times on the boat I used to meet him and talk with him going down, and got a good deal out of him. But he was not at all in the attitude of one desiring to give information. It was only when the Board of Visitors had been in existence for about a month or six weeks that we could get any information out of him. We went to him and we went to Dr. Dever and Dr. Sullivan, and he answered the questions as other gentlemen answered them. From the fact that Dr. Parker was there and Dr. Dever was on another island, and Dr. Sullivan had left, naturally we relied more on Dr. Parker. Mr. Brandeis asked Dr. Cogswell how he accounted for the general dissatisfaction among the officers down there, and Dr. Cogswell said he could not admit that there was, because he didn't know what the various officers had said, whether they had made statements that showed dissatisfaction. They did make statements that showed dissatisfaction, almost to an individual. They none of them sought us with complaints — not one. When we would go to them and ask questions they would answer them. Their answers were generally of a nature that showed that things were not as they ought to be, and they were in the attitude "How can we help it?” Mr. Parmelee, Dr. Cogswell said he knew he had a reason for testifying as he did, that Mr. Parmelee had a grudge against him. Mr. Parmelee told me frankly what the grudge was. There was another officer who came and spoke to me, Officer Forger, and he said very frankly, I have a grudge on Cogswell," as he expressed it, But the others didn't speak in the way of having a grudge or as mak

ing any complaints, but they were dissatisfied, disgruntled, everything seemed down at the heel. That seemed to be their attitude. They just seemed to be going along, and seemed to be in the position of its not making much difference what they did, that the institution was being run on the principle that anything was all right for paupers, and if things were not right why should they be right in an almshouse. Usually in an institution the people will hang together and don't want people outside to criticise them, and the lack I have been around of that was very noticeable in this institution.

a good deal to different institutions. Between fifty and sixty visits have been made by different members of the Board of Visitors to different institutions, and in other institutions we did not bear such complaints from inmates and officers as we did at Long Island. There may have been lots of complaint, but they didn't tell us about it. The difference was noticeable at the Charlestown Almshouse. When I would go around an institution and see the inmates, with Mr. and Mrs. Eastman, they would take occasion to leave me alone with inmates. They would speak to the inmate and say, “If you desire to speak to this lady you may do so," and Mr. or Mrs. Eastman would walk on and leave me with the inmate alone. It was entirely different with Dr. Cogswell. stuck at my elbow that is, when he was well and able to get around. When I was going around with Mrs. Eastman she would speak to an inmate and say, "If you want to make any complaints or if you want to speak to this lady, you may do so, and would walk off and leave me with the inmate alone. That made a good impression upon me, and in the Charlestown Almshouse I was very favorably impressed by what the inmates said to

me.

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They showered nothing but blessings upon the superintendent and his wife. Mrs. Eastman would go in and say, "Good evening! How are you feeling this evening?" and she would talk to the old ladies in a friendly manner, and they evidently thought the world of her. The same inmates who complained at Long Island, when at the Charlestown Almshouse would praise the superintendent and his wife and their treatment there. For instance, Doran and Simpson and three women with whom there was a good deal of trouble in the nursery at Long Island were over there. Doran said, "We have nothing to complain of here. It is a good place. The inmates work a great deal more here than at Long Island, and there is nothing to complain of." Simpson, that notorious complainer, said the same thing. The three women who had been at Long Island and who said they had been badly treated there were entirely different at the Charléstown Almshouse. I was on the side of the officers, and I said, "I think you women ought to be ashamed for acting the way you did at Long Island.' They said, "Well, we don't have any trouble here- we are very well treated here." I said, "I don't think you have acted as you did at Long Island.” "Well, we are treated better than we were at Long Island." Early last summer, however, I got a letter from Simpson saying that he was abused. Poor Simpson can't live without making complaints. He is a chronic grumbler. After he was at Long Island he was sent to Charlestown and was all right

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for awhile, and then began to make complaints again. He complained to me. I said, "I don't believe it." He said, "You speak to Doran, and he will tell you the same thing." I did, and Doran said, "I have no complaints to make." I don't think there were any complaints at Charlestown or any at Rainsford. Of course, in regard to the different prisons, you are not free to go around among inmates, prisoners, as you would in an almshouse, and I hadn't much opportunity to go around among the prisoners and find out. Dr. Putnam did go around with the Board of Visitors one day to the House of Correction, and said that Colonel Whiton had no objection to his talking to the prisoners. talked to one in the basement there, who was working, and who said, "I have nothing to complain of. Those who get. into trouble deserve it, and those who act well are treated well." One ex-convict who came to talk to Dr. Putnam a short while ago said the buckets were not kept very clean, but they were kindly treated, and all those who got into trouble deserved it. I say that does not show that there was or was not reason to complain; but I say it shows that the Board of Visitors did not go around stirring up complaints, and that the state of affairs at Long Island, where there were so many complaints, was exceptional. At the House of Correction Colonel Whiton acted courteously and with perfect candor which would lead met o rely on his word and his statement. If Colonel Whiton made a statement, I should not look around much to verify it. He told me a lot of things that I wouldn't have found out for myself, as he knew perfectly well, and he volunteered the information. When I asked to see the punishment book and other books, they were shown without hesitation. He said, “Certainly," and went and got the books and took the trouble to show me different things in the punishment book, and so on, and I found that seventy-five or eighty per cent. of the inmates were never punished at all, according to his books. There was not a shadow of hesitation, and he told me lots of things that I never would have found out myself. I certainly should have the greatest confidence in anything that Colonel Whiton should say, on account of the perfect candor with which we were treated. It was the same with Mr. Gerrish, at Deer Island. He told me lots of things that I never could have found out in regard to the institution. I suppose, of course, it must have been perfectly horrible to Dr. Cogswell to have us down there. He must have found us very objectionable. I don't believe the other superintendents of the institutions found us objec tionable, and I know that at the Marcella-street Home we were greeted with pleasure. Of course, at children's institutions, they like to have visitors come. It amuses and entertains the children and helps the officers and the school teachers. There are young ladies from Boston, volunteers, who go and visit the institution out there every week, and they are always extremely glad to have people come from the outside. And at the other institutions I don't believe any of them found the Board of Visitors a source of trouble in the institution. I know that some of them, whose rames I will not mention, found the Board of Visitors a help'in getting

what they thought ought to be done attended to. I know that is a fact. But certainly we did not go around trying to make trouble, and if we did make trouble, I think the explanation does not lie in the fact that the Board of Visitors tried to make it. The part the Board of Visitors have been called upon to play at the investigation has certainly been a very ungracious one. The attitude we have taken has been, without exception, an altitude we have felt obliged to take. Our relations with the Commissioners have been friendly, and I want to reiterate that we have been treated with unfailing courtesy by the Commissioners in every way. Imet Dr. Jenks a few weeks ago and he said, "Why don't you come down to see us at our institution?" And Mr. Pilsbury said the same thing. They have treated us with unfailing courtesy. Now, the nineteenth century is pretty nearly closed, and when people look back to see what it has done it will appear that one of the most striking things in this century certainly to my mind — will be the new thought that has been brought to bear on charitable subjects. In a democracy, people cannot be content to live in luxury while others are in squalor. We know that we are all born free and equal, and we should try, and it is the tendency of our time to try, to work in the direction of that freedom and equality by doing all we can to help and succor our fellow-men. In the generation that has come up charitable principles and charitable work are recognized that did not obtain twenty-five or fifty years ago; and it would be useless to expect that a man, for instance, in middle life, like Dr. Jenks, whose charitable experience and training has been tinged with the thought and the methods of the past generation, should run the institutions in the way that modern thought would demand. I think it should be borne in mind that it would be almost impossible for a man of his age and experience in the past, who has not been brought in contact with the modern ideas in regard to charitable work, to look at matters differently. People may say that he should look at such things in an enlightened way, but what man who has not grown up with the new thought could administer and carry out that new thought? Perhaps it is not my place to say this, but I have been treated with the greatest courtesy by Dr. Jenks, and I am glad that I am in a position to say many pleasant things about Dr. Jenks. I say what it is only fair that I should say, because I frankly admit that if I had been a Fire Commissioner and on half a dozen other commissions and had been engaged in mercantile life for fifty years and then became connected with the running of institutions I would not feel that I was competent to deal with the questions which arise aside from buying and selling. I feel that it requires one of those in the present generation to improve things, in accordance with the spirit of the present time in which intelligence is brought to bear to try to cure instead of relieve. Taking the State institutions, it is hardly more than twelve or fourteen year ago that we had the investigation of Tewksbury, which was then a scandal in the laud and which is now a model. Twelve years ago there was an investigation of the Westboro' Institution, of which I am trustee. The place was made all over, new buildings put up, everything was