Q. Carried up in what they call "an ambulance."

A. They were?

Q. Yes.

They were carried from downstairs, the lower deck,

up to the wharf in the arms of the deck hands.

Q. On to the wharf?

A. Yes, sir. I held the ambulance there and they were placed on the ambulance on the wharf.

CROSS-EXAMINATION.

Q. (By Mr. PROCTOR.) Did you have charge of the cleaning of the floors while you were deputy superintendent?

A. Yes, sir that is, I oversaw that it was done.

Q. Well, it was in your charge?

A. Yes, sir; the floors of the institution, not of the hospital. Q. That is what I am talking about.

A. Yes.

Q. Well, were they kept clean?

A. As clean as I could keep them with the fixing we had to do it with.

Q. Did you keep them clean?

A. As clean as I could.

Q. Pardon me

clean?

A. No, sir.

I ask you now if the floors were kept properly

Q. They were not?

A. No, sir.

Q. That was a part of your duty?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And in that respect you didn't do your duty?

A. I did; if I didn't have the things to do it right, I am not to blame.

Q. Now, you say you used the buggy harness that day?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You could have used it just as well when the boat came there as later?

A. If I knew she was coming.

Q. Well, you knew the boat was coming?

4. But not that there were any patients aboard of it.

Q. But you could use it just as well then, as later, although

the other harness was broken?

4. Didn't have any other harness.

Q. Well, you had a harness and used it, and the patients were taken up to the hospital?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And it didn't break and didn't fall back?

A. No, sir.

Q.. Now, about this report that you say is untrue with respect to a nurse. You say that it is not a fact?

A. It is not a fact. It is absolutely untrue from beginning to

end.

Q. I understand you cannot say that - now, listen to my ques

tion you cannot say that that was not reported to Dr. Cogswell,

can you?

4. No, sir.

Q. No.

A. I doubt it though.

Q. Pardon me - I don't ask for your belief or disbelief.

A. It weighs a great deal here.

Q. It does with yourself, but I have no use for it.

A. I suppose not. It is too damaging for you.

Mr. BRANDEIS. I trust that you will indulge in as little repar

tee as possible as it is desirable that this should be confined as close as possible to direct answers, to save time.

Mr. PROCTOR.

The WITNESS.

Mr. RILEY.

The CHAIRMAN.

Now you are called down.

No more than you are.

The trouble is

Will Mr. Riley keep still.

Q. (By Mr. PROCTOR.) You say the statements made in regard to you and the vegetables are not true?

4. I say so.

Q. You say they did go to your house, though?

4. I said nothing of the kind.

Q. They never went to your house?

A. I said once or twice on my first examination here.

Q. And you now wish to change that?

A. Yes, sir; wish to change it to once.

times before.

I quoted too many

Q. Your memory was worse then than it is now?

A. Not a particle.

Q. Just as good?

A. Just as good.

Q. But you did make a statement then that they went to your house two or three times?

A. I think so; yes.

Q. Now, they were sent to the Marcella-street Home in an express wagon, weren't they?

A. They were.

Q. Then you don't wish to change that statement?

A. I am willing to change it in this way.

Q. Go ahead.

A. That it wasn't a public express.

Q. Who said it was a public express?

A. It was referred to in that way.

Q. Did you hear anybody say it?

A. Yes an expressman, didn't know who," leading the public to believe that it was some expressman I had hired to take these goods and conceal them in my house.

Q. Well, they had come to your house some of the time?

A. Yes.

Q. And some of the time when they should have gone to Dr. Heath's ?

A. Never.

Q. Well, they started 'for Dr. Heath's and ended up at Mr. McCaffrey's that was the way of it, wasn't it?

A. Never, never, never.

Q.

Then there wasn't any mistake about it - you intended to send them to your own house?

A. When ?

Q. The times they got there?

A. The times I sent anything to my house I intended it to get there.
Q. Yes.
Yes. Did you tell anybody you were going to send it to your

house?

A. Yes.

Q. Whom?

A. Dr. Cogswell would know.

Q. Did you tell the superintendent?

A. Yes, sir. The superintendent more than one time has asked me to take stuff to my home. Will he deny it? Will he stand up here and say he denies it?

Q. Pardon me.

A. Yes, I will pardon you all you want to be pardoned.

Q. I feel much refreshed. You intended to send the vegetables to your house the times they got there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Not the other times, when they didn't?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ask Dr. Cogswell's permission ?

A. Yes, sir.

Q.

And he gave it?

A. He did.

Q. On each occasion?

A. No, sir; it wasn't necessary. The first time I asked him he gave me the right to send them whenever I see fit.

Q.

Carte Blanche?

A. Yes, sir.

"send as much as you please." He didn't care how

A. I sent to the Vigilant," to the Marcella-street Home very often, and I have sent to my own home.

Q. Were you the vegetable distributer down there?

A. No, sir.

Q. You sent them to your house as often as you wanted to?

A.

I thought the Commissioners saved so much money that I could. Q. By sending vegetables to your house?

A. By sending them to Marcella-street Home, instead of throwing them away on Long Island.

Q. You couldn't save them money by sending them to your house?

I think I could save many things that are not saved.

Q. (By Ald. LoMASNEY.) You were at Marcella-street Home before you went there?

Q. What were the facts about that at the Marcella-street Home?

Mr. PROCTOR. I don't see the need of taking up time to go into this. I don't object especially.

Mr. BRANDEIS. - I think Brother Proctor is right.

Ald. LOMASNEY. — Now, I don't propose to have the lawyers interfere with me.

Mr. BRANDEIS. My reason for speaking as I have is this: To-mor

row, of course, is reserved for the committee. One hour of our time to-day was taken out in order to accommodate certain city officials, and I am quite sure Mr. McCaffrey would be glad to come again if the committee desired it. But it seems to me that as to-morrow is the day reserved for the committee, they had better not take up our time to-day. Ald. LOMASNEY. Mr. Chairman, the committee have had many hours of their time wasted by the counsel, and I can get at this matter in three minutes, and it probably won't be necessary to have Mr. McCaffery here again.

The CHAIRMAN. The Alderman may go on.

Mr. PROCTOR. May I be heard a moment? My only suggestion is this: It makes no difference to me, but Mr. Cunningham has appeared here as counsel for the Marcella-street Home, or for Dr. Heath. Or course, neither Dr. Heath nor Mr. Cunningham are here, and it would seem to be fair if there is to be an attack on that institution that Mr. Cunningham or Dr. Heath should have a chance to be present. That is all I have to say.

Q. (By Ald. LOMASNEY) What are the facts in that regard?

The CHAIRMAN. Before he answers that question, does he know of what he is going to speak of his own knowledge?

The WITNESS.

I do.

A. No, yard officer.

Were you superintendent there or

Q. Now, get at the facts what were the facts about these children being eaten by rats, if they were eaten?

A. There was a baby there by the name of Thomas F. Gallagher Mr. PROCTOR. — I don't think it is proper to go into this at this time. Ald. LOMASNEY. The committee will give you ample time to look up the facts at the Marcella-street Home.

The WITNESS. Admitted August 4, August 5, eaten by the rats in the cottage. The mother called for the child August 6 and was told the child was sent to the country and she couldn't have it for a month. The five toes on the child's foot was chawn by a rat. The small toe was eaten so it hung by just the least bit of skin. The bed the child was in was saturated with blood. I was the first one called by the matron - to see the child. When I went over to the cottage there was a little boy came and told me the nurse wanted me and I went there and she showed me the child. I asked her what time it happened and she said it was about three o'clock. I asked her how she happened to have her attention attracted and she said she was woke by the cries of the child and listened and thought something was wrong and went down, and as she opened the door, which was closed so as to keep the draught from entering, this rat jumped from the bed, jumped on the floor and ran down behind the radiator. The morning I went over Dr. Heath had the child caring for it, and it was under treatment a month or more. The mother came for it at the latter part and the child was given to her with a box of salve, and she was told by Dr. Heath in my presence that the child had put its foot against the steam-pipe and burned it and to put this salve on and it would come out all right.

Q. (By Ald. LOMASNEY.). Is that the only case?
A. Another case before that happened

name, but called "Blind Jim."

a blind boy, I forget the

Q. Let us have that case; by the way, how old was the Gallagher boy?

A. I should say three years old, something like that. I won't be

sure.

Q. Give us the case of the blind child.

A.

This blind child used to sit on the floor, had no other piace for him, no one to care for him, and he was gnawed in his back, around the hip here, by a rat. I haven't got the date here.

A.

Q. Those are the only two cases that came under your observation? The only two of anybody being eaten by rats, but as to the care of the children in the nursery, there was a woman lived in this nursery, or cottage, as we called it, with thirty-six babies to care for alone, thirtysix babies at one time, and a house of twelve rooms to care for, to do the washing, dressing, and to see that they were properly cared for. This is the model institution, as they claim.

Ald. LOMASNEY.

Mr. Chairman, I move now that Dr. Heath be allowed an opportunity to rebut the testimony, if he desires to do so. Q. (By the CHAIRMAN.) You didn't see the rat?

A. No, sir.

Q. (By Ald. LOMASNEY.) Who was the nurse who saw this occurrence ?

A.

Yes, sir.

Q. Who was the other nurse, the nurse of the blind boy?

A. Manning she is not there.

Q. Who was the nurse who cared for the child eaten by the rat?

4. Named Corey, I believe.

Q. Who is the one that cared for the children?

A.

Annie Morrill. she is there now. There is plenty more about

the Marcella-street Home if you want to hear it.

Mr. BRANDEIS. I think, if the Aldermen do not care to go into this,

I would like to proceed to Long Island.

Q. (By Mr. RILEY.) As long as you are on this question, was there a boy named Murphy there in the Marcella-street Home?

A. Yes, sir; Cornelius Murphy.

Q. What became of him?

A. That boy was taken sick with cholera morbus a while in the hospital. Of course, in that disease they go out of their head, delirious, and he was left out at night when they locked the hospital doors up. He was raving, and got up out of bed and walked into the bath-room and jumped out of the third-story window, and was picked up by two of the watchmen and brought upstairs. He died the next day, and the hospital diagnosis was given cholera morbus."

Q. (By the CHAIRMAN.) Somebody told you that?

A. I saw the boy.

Q. You didn't see him jump?

A. No, sir. I was aware that he was picked up under the windows. Q. And you were told of the cholera morbus ?

A. He was eating the apples there and was taken sick. I fixed the

screen which he jumped through.

Q. (By Mr. RILEY.) And then he died?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, in regard to Sarah McCauley?

4. That is another case there. A child there at the time the scarlet fever was in the institution was taken sick with a lump on her throat here, a large lump, and the child wasn't properly cared for and there was no night nurse for her, or anything of that kind. The woman who was the night watchwoman of that institution had to go through the hospital and attend to the scarlet fever cases at night and come from