A. Yes, sir.

And you tried to get a warrant for larceny, for stealing shoes? A. No, sir.

Q.

Q. Was that about the time you were shipping vegetables up to your house?

A. I think it was latter.

Q.

After that?

A. Long after.

2. You did make some endeavors to get a warrant against him, didn't you?

Q. I told you once no.

A. Did you try to get the shoes?

A. No, sir.

Ald. LOMASNEY.—I don't want to object, but you can readily see that this has never been brought up.

Mr. PROCTOR. I am now simply touching on the matter in crossexamination.

Q. Well, this fellow you got to make the shoes was a fellow who ought to have been at work over at Long Island?

A. Yes. I want you to understand

Q. I don't want an explanation.

A. that I got Dr. Cogswell's permission to have that done.
Q. Didn't go to the Commissioners ?

A. No.

Q. I am surprised that you didn't.

A. I would like to have Dr. Cogswell stand up and corroborate it.

Q. (By Ald. LEE.) One question, Mr. McCaffrey you say you had some conversation with Alderman Dever and myself at Deer Island? A.

Yes, sir.

Q. Sometime in June or July?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Well, as to its management?

A. Yes, and as to the shortage of milk one thing and another like that.

Q. Anything else?

4. I didn't go as deep into the matter as I have here.

Q. Well, was there anything else you talked about? Had the islands, been divided then, or were they going to be divided?

A. They were divided.

Q. They had been divided. Well, was there any conversation as to the way in which they were divided?

A. I couldn't say. I wouldn't say there wasn't.

Q. Well, you felt at that time when they were dividing the islands. that you, being deputy superintendent, should be considered there for the position of superintendent?

A.

Never.

Q. Didn't you feel that way when talking with Alderman Dever and

me?

A. Pardon me, I will try to explain. I didn't solicit this place at Long Island. I didn't want to go there. Dr. Heath went over to my wife unknownst to me and asked my wife if she wouldn't like to go and live at Long Island. My wife said it was immaterial to her where she lived as long as I could make her a living and Dr. Heath said that he didn't want to tell me anything about this, but that he was going right down to Mr. Galvin to see Mr. Galvin about appointing me deputy of Long Island; that he had a hard time with his deputies down there and that he wanted to get a man he could rely upon. So Dr. Heath went down there and he saw Mr. Galvin and he came up and he told my wife before that if we went there we would have a house, found, and everything like that, and that the islands were to be divided and that Mr. Galvin was to go to Rainsford and Dr. Cogswell was to go to Long Island, and that old man Galvin would get his back up and kick and get out altogether, and that I, being deputy at Long Island, would be transported to Rainsford Island as superintendent. And with those things in view my wife said, "I think you had better try it." I went down and saw Mr Galvin, and here is the letter of introduction from Dr. Heath at that time, if the committee wish to see it. There is the letter of introduction from Dr. Heath at that time.

Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) Read it.

MARCELLA-STREET HOME AND NURSERY,

BOSTON HIGHLANDS, February 23. 1893. MY DEAR SIR: The bearer, Mr. George H. McCaffrey, the young man of whom I spoke to you. I can only repeat what I said to you on Tuesday, in substance, that he is all right, and that you had better take him. With regards, I am,

TO JOHN GALVIN, ESQ.

Very truly yours,

A. B. HEATH.

This is the letter of introduction. I went to Mr. Galvin and I had a talk with him on the wharf, and Mr. Galvin says, "I need no further talk from you at all. Any man who can come recommended as you have to me, I don't want nothing more. If you feel like taking the position it is yours." So I said, Weil, I don't care much about coming to the islands, but as I understand Dr. Heath there is to be a place made here for the deputy and his family, and the salary is to be increased," and he says. I understand it is," and the old gentleman got aboard the boat and went to Rainsford Island. He told me I could go to Long Island and look at the institution, and I did so. Dr. Heath said, "I want you to tell me before you go down whether you will accept it or not." I said, "I don't feel like doing that until I see whether he wants me or not. Well," he said, "he wants you, he wants you." Dr. Heath was kind of anxious to get rid of me out there, so I accepted it, and when I came back everything was quite pleasant. I went down to the island, and was there some little time, and didn't see this increase of pay coming, and I was losing money by being there. I spoke to the Commissioners about it, went to see Dr. Jenks at 14 Beacon street about it, and Dr. Jenks told me that Mr. Devlin and Mr. Pilsbury were then going over the pay-roll, and fixing it up, and it would only be a short time before it would be all right. So I waited a considerable time, and it didn't come. I was falling behind, supporting a family in the city here with the small salary I was getting there, and so I made up my mind to leave the island. One day Mr. Pilsbury came to the island, and met me at the wharf, and said, "We have been looking that matter up, and will attend to it right away, in a short time." Mr. Pilsbury will bear me out in that. I told Mr. Pilsbury that he needn't mind looking that matter up for me, that

there wasn't money enough in the Public Institutions Department to keep me on those islands. I ask Mr. Pilsbury to bear me out in that

statement.

Q. (By Ald. LEE.) That is, Mr. Galvin stayed there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. He didn't get out?

A. No, sir,

they didn't drive him out, and couldn't drive him out.

He didn't get out, and isn't going to get out that is the sun and substance of it.

Q. How do you know that?

A. Because he told me so.

2.

Supposing he told other people differently?

A. Then he has changed his mind since talking to me.

Q. People often do, don't they?

A. Yes, sir; sometimes.

Q. And quickly?

A. Yes. Now, gentlemen, I would like to say a few words here. I was accused of coming here because of feeling I had against Dr. Cogswell. It is nothing of the kind. I had no intention of coming here at all, and did not wish to come here until I received a summons to come here, and upon that summons I have come. I have not tried to exaggerate anything that I have said here about anybody, because if I did I tell you it would look worse in your eyes than now. There are some thing so small that some of these people have done that I don't care to lower myself to mention them. I want to say that I haven't mentioned an untruth since I have been standing at this table here or at any other hearing. As to matters of dates there may be some question about some dates. They deny the dates but they don't deny the facts, and it is the fact that tells.

Q (By Mr. PROCTOR.) We couldn't expect you to admit that you testified to anything but the truth ?

.. Mc

4. I am glad to hear it. The papers have quoted me about Caffrey's hearsay evidence." I have not given you a bit of hearsay evidence but what I have given you the author of it.

The CHAIRMAN. That has nothing to do with the committee — what the papers have to say. The committee will consider your testimony. The WITNESS. But the counsel, also, have said here the same and referred to the hearsay evidence. I have given you the author of it. The CHAIRMAN. The committee will weigh your testimony and give it such consideration as it deserves.

The WITNESS. - I hope they will. I think, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, that as a citizen of Boston I have the same privilege as any other citizen to be given a hearing before this Board, and I don't think I should be cut off more than anybody else. I want it understood that my people here pay as heavy a tax in Boston as anybody that has appeared before this table, and I think I have rights and privileges to that extent as a

citizen.

The CHAIRMAN. - I think you have.

The WITNESS.-I think so. Supposing I, as a citizen

Ald. PRESHO. -I object to any more remarks from the witness.
The CHAIRMAN. Call your next witness.

OTIS K. NEWELL, M.D. - Recalled.

Q. (By Mr. RILEY.) The other day a gentleman by the name of Flanders, gave that as his name here, and then the newspapers gave the name as Filsbee. You know the gentleman, do you not?

A. Yes, sir; I remember him.

Q. Now, he made reference to a conversation with you at a time when you and Mr. Devlin and himself were present. Bring your mind to that and state to the committee what occurred?

A. Well, I remembered very clearly. Mr. Flanders had spoken to me and to Mr. Devlin and me together a great number of times about the poor quality of goods which he was selling for the institutions, was obliged to sell, and he said he would like to have us come into his place some day and he could show us exactly what was being sold and what he didn't think was fit to supply to any institution. He said that no other institution or parties that he traded with would buy such goods. We went to his place together and he showed us the ten-cent tea which has been testified to here which he said wasn't fit tea to use, and he said the Cambridge House of Correction, for instance, where he sold a great many things, would not think of buying any such material, and he said that he had made statements to that effect to Dr. Jenks a number of times, about the goods, that they couldn't expect anything at that price except goods that went under the name, and that he had got no satisfaction whatever and couldn't get any. Both Mr. Devlin and myself told him that we felt that better goods should be bought and that we would do all we could to see that a change was made. Beyond that no statement of any kind was made to Mr. Flanders. I think I remember his speaking in regard to complaints being made to the Mayor about the goods by some of the other people who have bought them, and he asked us whether we thought it was a proper thing to do. I told him that it was eminently proper, that the Mayor was the one to whom, at any time, he or any other man should go and make a statement or complaint of that sort. Now, in regard to what he stated here before the committee, concerning the prices of those goods and one statement that Mr. Proctor was kind enough to make that nobody but Dr. Newell had ever heard of elevencent butter. Dr. Jenks stated to the Mayor's Committee of Visitors that he had not bought oleomargarine. I say all the committee needs to do is to go to the bills in the Auditor's office and see if not only a few pounds but tons of material has not been bought for these institutions which has been furnished to the institutions as butter, and which has been sold at anywhere from ten. eleven, twelve, to thirteen and fourteen cents a pound. That was the highest price paid for butter for inmates' use. Now, there isn't an expert in the country on butter to-day who will state, nor can one be produced here that can state, that anything that is butter can possibly be bought for that price. The bills are in the Auditor's office, I say, for tons of that material at those prices.

Q. So that in conversation with Mr. Flanders he himself said that the goods were of the poorest quality?

A.

use.

Yes, sir; he not only said the poorest, but said they were unfit to
He said, Of course I sell them.”

Q. He said that to you and Commissioner Devlin ?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Commissioner Devlin was there and heard all that was said? 4. Yes, sir.

Q. And he went to Mr. Flanders for the same purpose?

A.

Yes, sir. We went there to investigate,

Q. And you said if that was so he should go to the Mayor and inform him?

A. Yes, sir; told him it was an eminently proper thing for him to do.

CROSS-EXAMINATION.

Q. (By Mr. PROCTOR.) Well, you heard, I believe, the statement Mr. Flanders made here ?

A. Yes, sir. I heard all of Mr. Flanders' testimony, I think. I came in just as he began.

Q. Then you heard it all and understood what he said?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, you say that Flanders did not state the conversation as it took place?

A. Oh, I say that certainly he did not. in many instances,

His statements were incorrect

especially his statement was absolute perjury to say I told him that Dr. Jenks was going to be out of there before long and we would get things at better prices.

Q. Well, you say that was perjury on Mr. Flanders' part?

A. Yes, sir; perjury under oath. Believe that constitutes perjury. Q. But you did go down there with Mr. Devlin for the purpose of talking over the prices which you were paying?

A. I went for the purpose of seeing the goods which were being sold - went there as to many other places.

Q. You remember having the talk in a good many respects as he testified, and when he said that Mr. Devlin was present, it was true that Mr. Devlin was present at one conversation at Mr. Flanders' place?

A.

Yes.

Q. And it was at Sleeper's, was it?

A. Yes.

Q.

He is correct in that?

A. He was then in the employ of S. S. Sleeper; yes, sir.

Q. And it was in their shop?

A. Yes, sir; in their store, place of business.

Q. Where was it in the store?

A. Well, we were through the store.

When the statements were

made in regard to the tea we were in what they call the “drying-room,

I believe the tea-testing room, sample-room.

Q

But you said nothing to him with respect to the fact that Dr.

Jenks was not long to remain upon the Board?

A. No, sir, I did not.

Q

And that it might be for his interests to state to the Mayor some things which were not facts?

A. He did, sir.

Q. I think that is enough, sir.

A. He also showed his method of doing business then by asking Commissioner

Q. Oh, I haven't asked you any question, now, doctor.

A. All right. I meant to have stated that to the committee

that

he showed his crooked style of doing business by trying to induce me to allow him to send groceries to my house, and the same to Commissioner Devlin.

Q. Of course you didn't allow that?

A. Most certainly I didn't. The very fact that he supposed that that was an agreeable proposition, though, might account for his methods of doing business.

Q.

Was this the same conversation?

A. Yes, sir. That was stated the same day, in his store.

Q. When Mr. Devlin was present?

A. Also wanted us to accept a box at the theatre from him.

Q. Pardon me I am asking you a question now. Did he ever make that offer to you before?

A. Never but once.

Q. That was the only time?

A. Yes, sir; never before or since.

Q.

And never did afterwards?