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Q. (By Mr. RILEY.) Well, of course you wouldn't want any of that “ Congo ” tea at your house?

A. No, sir; not even to draw it once and try and say it was good. Now, there are only one or two other points I want to speak about, which will not take five minutes. The chief thing I wanted to speak about was a report that the Commissioners induced their counsel to ask for here, as one which had been asked for by the Commissioners of Public Institutions, and that report was presented by Dr. MuCollom. Now, I hope the committee will distinctly understand and the records will bear me out— that, in the first plilce, that report was never itsked for by the commissioners. It was a wholly false report, which was nade previous to the time of any inspection of the committee of experts, of the Mayor, or any other committee of the institutions, and it stated that things were practically in a perfect condition at a time when there were water-closeis opening right out into the wards, and 125 people had no watch or attendance of any kind, and in the place for contining women they had old straw mattresses, common beds, no operatingroom, or anything of t':e kind for confinement cases, and the general care for the children was corresponding. Now, that report was for the purpose of counteracting certain facts that appeared in the Boston * Herald." chiefly an article that appeared in the“ Herald," and that re. port was presented in the Board and was about to be read, and both Commissioner Devlin and myself objected to it as an underhand wily of doing business. We didn't that anybody had been consulted. The report was never asked for; it was untrue, and it was rejected by my own motion and by Mr. Devlin's assent, and without further opposition, as an untrue report. It was not to go on record, and if it ever went on record in any way it was without the vote or consent of the Commissioners. That is all I have to state about that report.


Q. (By Mr. PROCTOR.) Well, now, doctor, you say that Dr. McColloni also made false statements ?

A. Yes, sir; I say Dr. McCollom's report was absolutely false and unjust from beginning to end.

Q. What do you say about his statements here?
A. Well, I say they were false. I say it is one of those things

Q. Well, everybody who doesn't agree with you commits perjury – is that the idea ?

A. No, sir. That isn't a fair way to put it

Q. But everybody you have spoken of so far to-night who has differed from you has committed perjury?

A. Well, everybody who tells a lie under oath commits perjury, as I understand it. Q. You know the law, then ?

I say that is as I understand it. I am not familiar with the process.

Mr. RILEY. - That isn't the law, however, doctor.
Mr. PROCTOR. - I hope his medicine is better than his law.
Mr. RILEY. Well, you try it sometime.
Mr. PROCTOR. No-- pardon me.

The WITNESS. -- The only other thing I wanted to speak about, Mr. Chairman, was in relation to classification. I did not state in the beginning of this investigation perhaps what I ought to in relation to the value of any little thing that I might know about medicine or institututions. It is the fact that I have visited all the important institutions, and inspected them, in the eastern part of this countiy – in New York,



Philadelphia, Baltimore, and Washington, and most of those in four or five of the prominent European cities; and the whole sum and substance of the matter of classification which has been asked about here to-night could be explained in this way, that classification does not depend upon the number of buildings or new buildings at all. They are no better able to classify inmates in these institutions to-day than they were three year's ilgo.

They simply had a few hospital buildings and
perhaps some more dormitory room; but the proper classification
could be attended to in the original buildings by keeping different
classes of individuals in the different rooms. When they are not
in their rooms all that is needed to classify them properly is the proper
officering. Pay three or four men at least ten dollars a week salary and
see that they act as monitors over the different classes of inmates, not
allowing young boy's twelve, fourteen, or fifteen years old to be
exposed as they were in those institutions and probably are to-day
to the contaminating influences of grown-up and vicious men,
that things to which I did not see fit to refer or produce here as
evidence instead of being developed or encouraged in those institutions,
as they have been, would be entirely prevented. As to the necessity of
yards for the institutions – it has been tried to be shown here to-night
that they need a separate yard for different classes of cases. That is
wholly unnecessary with proper officering and monitoring. The elderly
inmates could be kept in one part of the 160 acres, eighty acres of what-
ever would be used for the purpose, and the boys could be kept in
another part; and with proper officering they could each be kept in
their own part and the classification could be as perfect in an institution
with one building and with eight or ten rooms — or even six rooms
as it could if you put up a separate structure for each set of cases.

Q. Did you ever know that to be tried ?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where?
A. I nerer saw an institution where it wasn't tried ?
Q. You know that doesn't answer my question ?
A. Yes, sir- that says everywhere, Mr. Proctor.
Q. Well, particularize - where ?
A. All the institutions.
Q. I know, but can't you give me one-

."all" is too large. Cau't you give me one ?

A. Yes, sir.
Q. Well, give me one.

A. Well, on Blackwell's Island the best instance of it is seen that I know of.

Q. Well, that is a place where people are sentenced, is it not?
A. No, sir.
Q. Aren't they sentenced to Blackwell's Island ?
A. No, sir.
Q. You state that of your own knowledge ?

d. Of my own knowledge. I suppose the finest charity hospital in the world is the charity hospital on Blackwell's Island. There are sentenced people on Blackwell's Island, of course.

Q. Oh, there are ?

4. Certainly. A prison is there and an insane hospital and the charity hospital.

Q. Now, will you give us another instance ?
A. Well, in the Vienna institutions at Vienna.
Q. Aren't they sentenced in the Vienna institutions ?

A. Sentenced, certainly, but that doesn't alter the fact of classification.

Q. But the law there is different froin what it is here.

A. Yes, sir; and I have stated that the law is different from what it is here, that even dead men

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Q. Can be classified ?

A. Yes, sir; can be classified in this way, that in those institutions the dead are properly cared for, whereas on Long Island the remains of dead men are neglected before they are cold. There not even the dead are neglected. The body is put on a slab, with a pitcher of water near by, and a rope attached to a bell, so that if by any possibility a mistake should be made and a man who was apparently dead recovered enough to turn over there would be the means of giving him still another chance to live. And such delicate attention and thought as that, shown in different ways, is in strong contrast to allowing bodies to rot and decay in an old dilapidated shed with no care at all.

Q. Well, you wouldn't approve of a marble slab and a pitcher of water

A. Well, I don't lay any stress on the marble slab, of course.
Q. You withdraw the marble ?
A. Yes.

Q. You wouldn't approve of the slab and pitcher of water in the case of a person who had been dead and who had been left there as long as that?

Q. As long as what?
A. As you have stated ?

A. Not ordinarily, but people have been left, you know, a long time and have come to life. Of course, after decomposition has set in it is pretty certain that the person is dead.

Q. When decomposition has set in there would no longer be any necessity for the pitcher of water and the slab?

A. After that set in there would be no necessity for it.

Q. Where else have you known of these humane rules of classification which you have referred to being enforced? You have spoken of Blackwell's Island and Vienna -- where else?

A. Well, all the hospitals in New York.

Q. Don't you know that they are sentenced to all the hospitals in New York ?

A. Some may be — not sentenced to the charity hospital.
Q. How do you know?

Ă. I wouldn't swear under oath. That would be immaterial, any. way. It doesn't interfere with classification.

2. No, but I ask you whether you know whether or not they are sentenced to the charity hospital?

A. No, sir, I do not.

Q. Because you are standing here as an expert and I am asking you what you know about these things.

A. 'Of conrse, that would be something for an expert lawyer to know about. That is immaterial to the question of classification. Q. If you will answer my questions we will get along better.

Answer the way you want me to.
Q. Oh, yes; you will answer in that way, of course.

Do you know about any other institutions in this country?

A. Oh, yes.
Q. What one where they have this classification by monitors ?
Ă. Oh, I didn't say by monitors -- by proper officers.
Q. Do you know such an institution on the face of the earth ?
A. Yes, sir, Worcester; they have proper officers there.

You needn't name them “ monitors."

Q. You said there should be proper monitoring, and I suppose that would be done by officers. Three or four ?

A. Yes, sir; you can call them officers or monitors.

Q. Then I was right on that, I see. Now, what institution up at Worcester had monitors ?

A. Why, the Worcester Insane Asylum and the Poor 'Farm at Worcester.


Q. You have been there?

A. They have proper officering in that respect. Yes, sir; I have been there.

Q. You have seen this method of keeping prisoners separate by monitoring?

A. Not necessarily prisoners, but inmates of institutions.
Q. You have seen at Worcester inmates kept separate by monitor-


A. Yes, sir. You wouldn't have these women having these illegitimate children, or any other such accidents happening because there were not proper persons, officers, to watch over them, if you had some arrangement of that kind.

Q. Well, you say that is done at Worcester ? d. Yes, sir.

Q And they have a large place and let them out into the fields with a monitor?

A. I didn't say that.

Q. Is there a place you know of where they have monitors to keep people separate out-of-doors ?

A. Yes, sir.
Q. Well, you haven't named any yet. Is there any such place?

A. You are mistaken. I told you in the first place Blackwell's Island and said again Worcester. I told you that there was some system for that sort of thing not only in Vienna but in other places — that there is proper officering for the inmates. There isn't any question about it. The whole gist of it was to show that you do not require separate buildings in order to classify people.

Q. Then you don't agree with Mrs. Evans ?

A. No, sir. I agree with Mrs. Erans as far as she went, but I was very much surprised that Mrs. Evans did not claim to give the detailed method.

Q. I am asking you whether you agree with her ?
A. I agree with her as far as she went. I don't

I don't agree with any one that it is not an easy thing to classify people, to keep them separate.

Q. You don't think it is easy ?

A. I think it is an easy thing - very easy. The Commissioners are trying to excuse themselves here for that lack of classification which has prevailed, saying they will remedy the difficulty as soon as they are in condition to do it. They were in just as good condition to classify three years ago as they are to-day.

Q. Did you ever make a motion while you were on the Board that anybody in the institutions under your charge should be classified ?

A. Yes, sir; not only made a motion
Q. Was it entered upon the record ?
4. No, sir; I don't believe it was.

I don't believe it was. I don't know.
Q. Did you ever make a formal motion ?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In writing ?

I never made a formal motion so that it could go into the records, but I brought it to the attention of the Commission at least a dozen times.

Q. Well, Mr. Devlin agreed with you then, did he not?

A. Mr. Devlin agreed that there ought to be more officers, and we got them increased ninety per cent. in one institution.

Q. Did he agree with you as to the classification ? 4. He did, as far as it applied to having a proper number of officers.

Q. Oh, no - I am not asking you about that. I ask you if you, as a Commissioner, ever took any steps to classify the inmates at Long Island ?

4. Yes, sir.


that is an What way


Q. What did you do? Did you do anything but talk ?
A. I did.
Q. What?

A. I went down and investigated the condition of affairs insulting way to put it," Did you do anything but talk ? " has anybody of expressing ideas except by talking ? That is a ridiculous way of questioning.

Q. Don't get angry.

A. I am not, but you are only wasting time " What did you do but talk!" You might apply that to the reservoir. Of course, I didu't dig the reservoir.

Q. You agree that you didn't do anything but talk ?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Then what else did you do?

I told you. I went down to Long Island in the early part of my going about the institutions and saw that there was no employment for the men there, saw prisoners coming over every day and leaving at night and living among the inmates, and I brought the subject up. They didn't have formal meetings in the first part, and afterwards it was talked of in formal meetings, as far as I know. I wouldn't swear to that, but I tried to have something done to put the men to work there, and Dr. Jenks objected to it strenuously. It was claimed that they couldn't punish those inmates, but the fact is that they punished them by refusing old men butter to put on their bread, and so on.

Q. But according to your opinion the butter was worse than nothing, anyway, Now, have you stated all you did with respect to classifying the inmates at Long Island ?

A. No, sir.
Q. Go ahead as rapidly as is consistent with the truth.

A. The whole statement, as far as the committee would care to have it, is, that I made repeated efforts to have a proper number of officers, so that inmates there, especially at Long and Rainsford Islands, should be separate.

Q. Well, you had friends that you wanted to get places for down there, so that this classification really meant that you could thereby make more places to get people into. That is the classification you were after, wasn't it, doctor?

A. Well, you have got a good deal of presumption to attempt to state it in that way. On what ground do you do it? Q. I am asking you a question - answer it or not, as you

like. A. Well, it is absolutely untrue, and it is like your statenent of my being the only person who had ever heard of eleven-cent but It is uncalled for and ungentlemanly. You should not make such a statement unless you can found it on facts.

Q. i ask you a question and I would like to have an answer. do not care to answer it say so. I don't care whether you do or not. Suit yourself.

A. Your question was in regard to whether I wanted more officers so as to get places for people who were friends of mine?

Q. Yes, sir.
Ald. LEE- Good fellows.
Q (By Mr. PROCTOR.) Yes, good fellows.

I say that no motive was behind anything I ever did in that Conmission except what was for the bettering of the institutions.

Q. Well, you stated that what you desired to do with respect to classifying the inmates at Long Island consisted in an attempt to get more officers. Am I right? A. I was referring to classifying the inmates at Long Island. Q. That is what I am talking about – Long Island. A. I think you said Deer Island.

If you!


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