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Q. If I did it was an inadvertence, and you will forgive me, I know. A. Certainly.

Q. Did you do anything else except attempt to get more officers down there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, the only thing you state so far is, that you went down there and saw them?


You did not want me to go into detail. I have already stated that I brought up the question of the prisoners brought over there, and being thrown in contact with the inmates of the institution. I thought that should not be done, but what I did was,of no avail, and I then went to the Corporation Counsel and asked him about it.

Q. About classification ?

A. No, sir - separation.

Q. We are now talking about classification.

A. Well, that is the first step to separate the criminals from the poor, some of whom were worthy poor.

Q. Did you ever get farther than that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did you do?

A. It was of no use for me to state to the Commission that the Corporation Counsel said it was not proper or legal for the prisoners to be kept there. They said they didn't care what the Corporation Counsel's opinion was, that they were going to do those things to suit themselves and take their chances on that both in relation to that and another matter. Then I insisted at a time when we had formal meetings, I moved that the Board ask for the official opinion of the Corporation Counsel on the matter. Then we got a written opinion of the Corporation Counsel, and I think after that was spread upon the records for about two weeks the prisoners were not sent over. Then the thing was

resumed as bad as ever.

Q. You have now stated all you did in respect to classifying the people at Long Island?

A. No, sir; because I couldn't without taking a very long time.

Q. You haven't stated anything you did yet except to go down there and make an effort to have some officers appointed, and to talk with the Corporation Counsel ?

4. Well, tried to have some form of employment for them.

Q. What did you do?

A. I suggested it

there in the Board.

all that was ever done and all that I could do

Q. And you didn't get it?

4. My idea was to give them proper employment. For instance, what Mr. Galvin stated I think was absolutely true and showed a common-sense view of the case that it was easy to get the day's work of one good, sound, well man out of four of those men. They would not work ten hours a day like a man who gets $3 or $4 a day for doing it. They are not physically able to do that sort of thing.

Q. (By Mr. RILEY.) You went to the Mayor about the same thing, didn't you?

A. Oh, went to the Mayor six or seven times about it, and the Mayor told me it was all wrong and ought to be changed.


(By Ald. LEE.) Which Mayor?

A. The man who has been Mayor the last four years.

Q. N. Matthews, Jr.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. (By Mr. PROCTOR.) Now, I am asking you about this classification. I understood you to say that you had an idea that you might take the young people, say, from fifteen up to twenty, and put them out to one side.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And take the others from twenty-three, twenty-four, twentyfive, and up—and put them to one side and divide them in that way? A. Yes, sir; in that general line- the boys, the infirm, the old and the young women.

Q. And from the moral standpoint you would go still farther and divide them into classes, or would you allow the good to go with the bad?

A. No. You have got to do that in a measure, but you should prevent people from getting up and going out from the dormitories they are in into other dormitories, and so on. You have got to see that those unfortunate things which have happened do not happen.

Q. That would be mere separation, wouldn't it?

A. Yes, sir. Separation is classification in the truest sense. Moral and mental classification is a matter requiring a longer time for consideration and is indefinite. But the classification by separation into welldefined groups is a perfectly apparent one; and the only classification which you can read about in that report of the Commissioners is that they select and put apart a place and label it in their official reports as "Loafers' Hall," and the very name is a disgrace in connection with any institution. That was the acknowledged name, the name placed in their report, of their only place of separation Loafers' Hall."

Q. And that is as far as you want to go on record in regard to classification what you have stated?

A. I just want a classification that will separate them into their proper groups at the present time-the old from the young, the able-bodied from the infirm and crippled, and the sexes from each other.

Q. Then after you have got that done, you want to go there and take the good from the bad?

A. I think, in the line of making the boys good citizens, it might be desirable to establish a school for them like the Farm School on Thompson's Island. I saw there the way boys were learning carpentering and all sorts of things, and good citizens being made out of them.

Q. Now, while you were one of the Commissioners of Public Institutions you had a great many applications for places?

A. No, sir; no friend of mine or anybody connected with me had a place in the public institutions.

Q. I didn't say that; I say that while you were a Commissioner you had many petitions presented to you and many requests made for places ?

A. No, sir. I don't remember a single application to me for a place. Of course, men have often come into the office here asking for positions. Men have come to the office to see if they couldn't get employment, like the man who went down there to take an ordinary position, going through the civil service, and who went down there as a full-fledged apothecary. He didn't stay there long.

(The hearing was adjourned at 12.35 A.M. to meet at 11 o'clock A.M. Thursday, December 27.)


THURSDAY, December 27, 1894.

The committee met at the House of Correction at 12.05 P. M., Chairman HALLSTRAM presiding.

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(By the CHAIRMAN) What is your name?
Robert Neff.

And you are an officer in this instistution ?
Yes, sir.

What office do you hold?

I am an officer in Shop No. 3.

How long have you been an officer here?

A. I came here the last of April, 1891.

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(By Ald. LOMASNEY.) Do you remember the occurance, Mr. Neff, when Officer Young shot Flaherty?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, just describe in your own way that whole occurrence from beginning to end.

Ald. LEE.· That is, what he saw, you mean.

Ald. LOMASNEY. The whole thing what you saw and what you heard; everything that occurred that day in the shop at that time.

The WITNESS-The morning of the trouble there was one of the prisoners came running into the shop by the name of Maguire, I think it was He ran through the shop, and then just a few minutes afterwards Officer Young came in. As he came in the door, Martin Flaherty was sitting near there. He jumped up, run for Officer Young and made a punch at him. At that time that the punch was made, some of the men that was at work there started to smash the machines, and some one of them fired a chair at me—I couldn't say who it was. I looked out for things the best I could, and pretty soon I heard the report of a revolver, and I saw Flaherty put his hand up to his jaw and run down to the lower end of the shop. He came back again after a while and asked me to go to the hospital, and I said he could; so he went out.

Q. Is that all you saw?



That is all I saw.

You saw Flaherty strike Young with his fist?

A. I couldn't say whether he hit him or not, but he punched at him. Q. Then what did Young do?


At that time they started to smashing the machines, and of course my attention was drawn to the other men, because they were smashing the machines and the windows

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Well, didn't you see him?

Well, I saw him just as he rushed at him.

Q. What did Officer Young do to him ?

A. I heard the report of a revolver.

Q. As soon as Flaherty struck him, you heard the report of the revolver?

A. Oh, I couldn't say that it was right that second.

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A. Within a half a minute, I should say.

Q. You saw Flaherty from the time Young came in the door until you heard the sound of the revolver?

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Yes, sir.

Q. Your eyes were on those two men? Is that right?

A. It was for a few seconds.

Q. Well, from the time that Young came into the shop, you saw Flaherty rise, go towards Young and strike him, and you saw the whole thing from that time until the time the revolver shot was fired? Is that so ?

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A. I couldn't say.

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Well, you say you saw him strike him?

A. I saw him punch at him; yes, sir.

Q. What did he do when he struck him?

A, Well, the men started to smash the machines at that time, and I had all I could do to watch the other men in the shop and look out for myself, too.

Q. How long was it after you saw Flaherty rise and go towards Young before the pistol shot went off?

A. Oh, a minute, perhaps. I am not positive as to that.

Q. Did they come together more than once?

A. I couldn't say.

Q. Did you see them conie together more than once?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you see Flaherty strike Young and then see him run away, and see Young follow Flaherty?

A. I didn't.

Q. What?

A. I didn't; no, sir.

Q. The only thing you saw was Flaherty strike Young with his fist; and then there was a shot of the revolver?

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I think he had a mark on some part of his head. I am not posi

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Q. Did he say at that time that he was struck with the gooseYoung?

A. I think I heard something said about it. I couldn't say whether he was or not.

Q. Did you hear him say that he was?
A. I am not positive as to that.

I heard some talk about the goose.

Q. Did he show by any indication, by any mark, that he had been struck with a goose?

Ald. LEE Well, is there any evidence that he was struck with a goose?


Ald. LOMASNEY - I am trying to find out what the witness saw.

Ald. LEE - I know; but the testimony was that he was not struck with a goose.

Q. (By Ald. LOMASNEY.) Was there any indication, any mark, to show that Young was struck with his fist?

A. I didn't see any, sir.

The CHAIRMAN - Is that all the questions you desire to ask?

Ald. LOMASNEY. Yes, sir.

Q. (By Ald. LEE.) I want to ask the witness something. I understood you to say that there was trouble, and that this man came running into the shop and that started the turmoil and trouble in there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. The man came running in for some reason or other?

4. He came from the No. 1 shop.

Q. He came from the No. 1 shop; and after he got into the shop, Young came in ?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, where did Young stand?

A. He stood four or five feet from the door. as he came in the door, at the end of a little bench that is there for piling goods on.

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After this man had run in there, then the rioting commenced in the shop?

A. Yes, sir; just after he came in.

Q. Just after he came in?

A. Well, I won't say just then.

Q. Of course you cannot say that it commenced to the one-fifteenth of a second; but it commenced a short time after that?

A. Yes, sir; pretty near then.

Q. Then I understood you to say that some one fired a chair at you? A. Yes, sir; it went by my head.

Q. It went right by your head.

Young, did he?

A. Yes, sir.

Well, Flaherty then went towards

Q. Well, did he come in a direct line?

A. Flaherty was sitting on the chair. He was making liberty clothes at the time, and he was either waiting for the runner to go for a hot iron or something like that. I know he was sitting in the chair at the time, and to the best of my recollection after this man came in, this man Flaherty jumped off of his chair and made for Young.

Q. Made for Young?


Yes, sir. He was following him, and he made a punch at him. Of course, I couldn't say wether he hit him or not. The other men started to smash the machines and windows, and there was a stool fired at me. Of course I gave my whole attention to the men. That is what I was there for.

Q. You didn't see Flaherty after he first went towards Young? When Young pulled his gun, you didn't see him then rush for a goose, did you?

A. No, sir; I was watching the other men.

Q. And what you did see was that when Young came in Flaherty went towards him and made a punch at him, and you don't know whether he struck him or not?

A. No, sir.

Q. (By Ald. LOMASNEY.) Was there a pistol in Young's hand when he came into the shop?


I couldn't say positively whether there was or not.

Q. Did you see his whole person?


I think I did,

Q. Did you see a pistol in his hand the minute he came in the door?

A. I cannot recollect whether he had it in his hand or not.

Q. Did you see a pistol at all ?

A. I wouldn't swear to that, either.

Q. Did you see him hit Flaherty with the but end of the revolver? A. I didn't.

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