four or five of the men, and he got the story that these men were going to be let go from this plant. So he went to the management the next day.

The gentleman was supposed to be rather hard on organized labor, the gentleman who was running that plant. This labor organizer went in and asked him if he was going to fire these men. He told him that he was there on the property to organize it; he was going to organize it. He said that if he canned these 5 men and didn't go along with him, he was going to bring his coal miners over and take the factory, brick by brick, and take it up to the owner's yard and leave it at his house. At that meeting there wasn't 1 man there who was interested in that story. In fact, he lost the attention of the whole crowd, which wasn't very large-10 or so. Those men, with the exception of 3, never came back. They weren't interested in moving their plant, where they had a substation operating, nowhere. They were willing to go there and work in it and they wanted to work in it.

Mr. HALLECK. I take it you didn't hear those conversations yourself?

Mr. GILL. Yes; that story-I was at that meeting.
Mr. HALLECK. You were at the meeting?

Mr. GILL. Yes; and I have the name of the organizer. The reason
I told it was to give you an idea of the effect on the men.
Mr. HALLECK. I think that is all.

Oh, just one minute. What would you say to the committee as to the desirability of holding an election or a subsequent election after there has been an election and the majority has been found and they have been served by it? How soon do you think we should permit another election to be held in that plant?

Mr. GILL. I don't know. Anything I might say would be biased anyway, but in our particular case-and that is what I am interested in-when we asked for an election there had never been any election. This election here isn't out of the way yet.

Mr. HALLECK. Take this case that you have talked to us about. I only ask you because you are in the field there and your judgment should be helpful. Suppose the C. I. O. had actually won a majority in this first election and had been certified, now then, I assume that it might be possible that you boys in the A. F. of L. would continue your efforts to try to get a majority in the plants, in the industry. How soon do you think that another election should be required?

Mr. GILL. Well, the way I probably would react to it is that if our organization continued to prosper and warranted it-you remember I am not a paid organizer, I am not interested in the property except as it concerns the welfare of my job, promoting better working conditions, and so on-but if the boys were all happy in joining with the rival organization and it looked like a hopeless task, I certainly wouldn't.

Mr. HALLECK. You think it would be too much to say you shouldn't have another election there for a year at least?

Mr. GILL. You wouldn't get one for more than a year, and probably you would have to be satisfied with a year. That would certainly be fair, I think.

Mr. HALLECK. Whenever you are built up to one of these elections, isn't there a lot of turmoil and strife? It involves the company and everybody else.

Mr. GILL. And further, if you certify a contract with this rival organization, whichever one it was, for the duration of a year, you certainly couldn't have another vote before that time, because we would be tearing down the very thing, we would be asking them to tear up a contract which had been signed.

Mr. HALLECK. I think that is all.

Mr. HEALEY. I wonder if I might ask a question, Mr. Gill? A lot of these employees have been employed by this power company for a long period of years, have they not?

Mr. GILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HEALEY. And there are many friendships and associations that have grown over the years. Isn't that correct?

Mr. GILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HEALEY. How does this rivalry of the two unions react on the men themselves, in their associations and friendships and that sort of thing?

Mr. GILL. Well, we in Grand Rapids don't have any organization of the C. I. O. We don't know. Some of the men that I contact in Saginaw occasionally, of course, I meet them with some sort of good will. I am not particularly mad at them. I think they feel they are doing what is right-that is, some of the fellows who are out trying to work. But there are places where heat has been applied. I think one of our other men could tell about this, where a couple of C. I. O. men probably don't even get along with the other fellows. Maybe they don't even speak to them either way. They are just out. As far as it is on the other side of the State, there has been a lot of build-up. In fact, at this last strike a lot of the men thought it was bigger than it was, and they went out. Monday they were back at work. The boys that did stay out weren't very easy on those boys. They called them scabs and so on, and the boys definitely broke, right in their own organization. Now their big job is to get those boys back, not get our outfit-it is to get their own members back. We have had contacts at their meetings, their open meetings anyway. That is their opinion. That is one reason they are afraid to have my opinion. They are afraid to ask for the election too quickly, and they are afraid to wait too long because of you gentlemen.

Mr. HEALEY. That isn't exactly in response to my question. I mean, what is the result of these rival organizations among the men themselves? Does it in any way destroy friendships? Do the A. F. of L. men continue to speak to the C. I. O. men in the plant, and that sort of thing?

Mr. GILL. Well, I can't say too much about that in Pontiac and Flint. There has been some of that destroyed, no doubt. There has been hard feeling, because of some of the men losing 2 weeks on strike and others not, but in most of the places I don't think it is a big enough problem.

You realize those 1,164 votes C. I. O. got didn't represent their membership; it represented the types of fellows that wanted perhaps something for nothing. You would be surprised, or maybe you wouldn't, at the number of men around that thought, "Well, if it is

C. I. O. they will go on strike and they won't ask me to go out," the very men that are backing them. There were perhaps 10 near Grand Rapids. They wouldn't even think of going out. They didn't even suggest it. They were right down to work early. That is the reason why those men entered it. They thought they got something once. They struck, and the result is there are 17 men under indictment that certainly don't deserve it, but they stuck their necks out. Mr. HEALEY. That is all.

(The witness was excused.)

Mr. TOLAND. Mr. Chairman, I have three other witnesses, employees of the same company, and I would like to call all three of them, have them sworn, and ask if they will adopt the testimony of the other witness, as far as the facts are concerned from their own knowledge.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. TOLAND. Will you three gentlemen be sworn?
The CHAIRMAN. Let's take them one at a time.

Mr. TOLAND. All right.

TESTIMONY OF CLIFFORD ALLEN, AN EMPLOYEE OF THE CONSUMERS POWER CO., IONIA, MICH.

(The witness was duly sworn and testified as follows:) Mr. TOLAND. Will you give your name to the reporter? Mr. ALLEN. Clifford Allen.

Mr. TOLAND. Where do you reside, Mr. Allen?

Mr. ALLEN. Ionia, Mich.

Mr. TOLAND. Where are you employed?

Mr. ALLEN. Consumers Power Co.

Mr. TOLAND. Are you a member of the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, affiliated with the American Federation of Labor?

Mr. ALLEN. I am.

Mr. TOLAND. How long have you been a member of this organiza. tion?

Mr. ALLEN. I think 2 years in April, this coming April.

Mr. TOLAND. Have you ever been a member of the C. I. O. or any organization affiliated with the C. I. O.?

Mr. ALLEN. I have.

Mr. TOLAND. When was that, and where?

Mr. ALLEN. I don't think I can give you the date. It was before the first strike. I resigned or quit before the first strike took place. Mr. TOLAND. And since that time you have been a member of the American Federation of Labor organization?

Mr. ALLEN. Not entirely. I would say it must have been about 4 or 5 months that elapsed in between.

Mr. TOLAND. You have been present, have you not, while Mr. Gill testified?

Mr. ALLEN. I have.

Mr. TOLAND. Are you willing to adopt his testimony insofar as he has stated facts within your own knowledge?

Mr. ALLEN. I would.

Mr. TOLAND. Is there any statement that you would like to make of your own to the committee concerning your connection with the A. F. of L. organization, and the action of the Board in preventing your organization from being permitted to vote at the run-off election?

Mr. ALLEN. I feel practically the same as Mr. Gill did about that, although I do understand-I haven't proof, but I think the committee can find that proof-that there have been elections held where the run-off elections, the two high parties were taken in the run-off election. I think one of those cases was somewhere in Louisiana.

Mr. MURDOCK. Could you give us that?

Mr. ALLEN. I couldn't give you any information on it, but I have read that, or I understand maybe more than the one. I am pretty positive of one.

Mr. TOLAND. Any questions from the committee?

The CHAIRMAN. You may be excused.

(The witness was excused.)

TESTIMONY OF LESLIE RICE, LINEMAN, CONSUMERS POWER CO.,
LANSING, MICH.

(The witness was duly sworn and testified as follows:)
Mr. TOLAND. Will you give your name to the reporter, please?

Mr. RICE. Leslie Rice.

Mr. TOLAND. Where do you reside?

Mr. RICE. Lansing, Mich.

Mr. TOLAND. What is your present occupation?

Mr. RICE. I am a lineman.

Mr. TOLAND. With what company?

Mr. RICE. Consumers Power Co.

Mr. TOLAND. Are you a member of the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers affiliated with the American Federation of Labor?

Mr. RICE. I am.

Mr. TOLAND. How long have you been a member of that organization?

Mr. RICE. Approximately 2 years.

Mr. TOLAND. Were you present during the time that Mr. Gill testified?

Mr. RICE. I was.

Mr. TOLAND. Are you willing to adopt his testimony as to facts within your own knowledge and as to the expressions of opinion of Mr. Gill concerning the organization of which you are a member, with regard to the action of the Board in the run-off election?

Mr. RICE. Yes.

Mr. TOLAND. Do you have any statement of your own you would like to make to the committee?

Mr. RICE. Not very much. I would like to say that I don't think, unless there is an election between these two rival labor organizations, we shall have any peace on the property, so it will be constantly in a turmoil, argument pro and con, and trouble. That is all I have to say. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you.

Mr. TOLAND. That is all.
(The witness was excused.)

TESTIMONY OF THOMAS BYLE, AN EMPLOYEE OF THE CONSUMERS POWER CO., GRAND RAPIDS, MICH.

(The witness was duly sworn and testified as follows:)

Mr. TOLAND. Will you give the reporter your full name?

Mr. BYLE. Thomas Byle.

Mr. TOLAND. Where do you reside, Mr. Byle?

Mr. BYLE. Grand Rapids, Mich.

Mr. TOLAND. Where are you employed?

Mr. BYLE. Consumers Power Co.

Mr. TOLAND. How long have you been an employee of that company? Mr. BYLE. Since May 10, 1926.

Mr. TOLAND. Are you a member of the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, affiliated with the American Federation of Labor?

Mr. BYLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. Were you present this morning when Mr. Gill testified? Mr. BYLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. Are you willing to adopt his testimony as to facts stated by him, within your own knowledge, and adopt his opinions on behalf of your organization, with respect to the action of the Board in the run-off election held at the Consumers Power Co.?

Mr. BYLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. Have you any statement you wish to make to the committee?

Mr. BYLE. There is just one statement I would like to make. It seems awful queer that after we petitioned the National Labor Relations Board for an election it was necessary for us to go down and show cause why our names should be on the ballot of an election held on the property. That seemed to me more or less prejudice against us. We petitioned for the election and then had to show cause why we should be on the ballot. That is all I have to say.

Mr. HEALEY. Does that have reference to the run-off?

Mr. BYLE. No, sir; that was the first election.

Mr. HALLECK. Had there ever been an election before that?

Mr. BYLE. No, sir.

Mr. HALLECK. No labor organization certified?

Mr. BYLE. The C. I. O. had certification.

Mr. HALLECK. They had been certified but no election?

Mr. BYLE. They hadn't been certified; they had a signed contract.

Mr. HALLECK. Had the Board ever certified the C. I. O.?

Mr. BYLE. No.

Mr. HALLECK. Yours was the first petition?

Mr. BYLE. Ours was the first petition.

Mr. HEALEY. Mr. Byle, are you definitely certain that before the original election it was necessary for you to show cause why the A. F. of L. union should appear on the ballot?

Mr. BYLE. Yes; I was at the hearing. The hearing was held in Detroit, Mich., on April 28 and 29.

Mr. HEALEY. Before the original election?

Mr. BYLE. Before the original election.

Mr. TOLAND. Do you want to make any comment along that line, on the action of any employee of the Board at that hearing?