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Mr. TOLAND (interposing). I didn't ask you that. Please give me a responsive answer. Do you recall mentioning the countries to Mr. Bajork that you intended or hoped to visit?

Mr. Vogt. Yes.
Mr. TOLAND. All right.
Mr. Vogt. I think I remember.
Mr. TOLAND. Now tell the committee.

Mr. Vogt. I had planned to visit England, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Russia, Germany, Austria, Italy, and Spain, if I possibly could.

Mr. TOLAND. Isn't it a fact you told him that you wanted to visit those countries where they had dictators, to study labor conditions under dictatorships?

Mr. Vogt. I was interested in how labor problems were —

Mr. TOLAND (interposing). Did you tell him that? I am asking you. Either you did or you didn't. Now did you tell that to Mr. Bajork?

Mr. Vogt. I don't recall.
Mr. TOLAND. Well, then, I will read what he said you said.

Mr. MURDOCK. Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that-if I could have the attention of the chairman for just a moment? The procedure seems to me, and it has been ever since our hearings commenced, for counsel to have in his possession an exhibit which definitely gives the evidence, and instead of first handing that to the witness to refresh his recollection on a thing that I'd imagine is a year or two old, he first cross-examines the witness as to whether or not he has made these statements, when the exhibit itself shows exactly what was done. Now it seems to me that that is rather a dilatory method of getting the evidence to us as to just what the witness may have done, and I suggest to both the chairman and to counsel, that if the evidence as to what the witness has done is right there before him that probably the best way to submit it would be to hand him the exhibit and ask him if he didn't make such a statement.

Mr. TOLAND. Well, now, that

Mr. MURDOCK (interposing). I make that as a suggestion, not as a criticism, but as something which appears to me to be conducive to expediting the taking of evidence.

Mr. TOLAND. Well, now, I

The CHAIRMAN (interposing). I am sorry that I was diverted at the moment that this incident occurred and I really don't know the background of it. What do you have to say, Mr. Poland ?

Mr. TOLAND. I don't like to disagree with Mr. Murdock that from the very beginning right down to and including today, that all of the exhibits that I have introduced I have not shown the witness and then introduced them. When the witness was on, I put in probably 50 or 70 exhibits, and merely showed them to him and asked him if he ever saw them before, offered them in evidence, and then I gave an opportunity to make an explanation, whatever explanation he wanted to make with respect to them. Many of those exhibits he never saw. They were in his personnel file, being written by members of the Board with regard to criticisms, with regard to salary increases, and generally with regard to the work of the witness. I offered in evidence a letter from the chairman of introduction with respect to his trip, and I questioned the witness about it, and he answered.

I now have a document that was written by someone else, based upon a conversation with the witness, and I am now trying to refresh his recollection as to what he said to his superior at the time he made an application for leave.

Mr. MURDOCK. Now may I just ask you this question, Mr. Toland? Mr. TOLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. MURDOCK. Have you some documentary evidence before you now which shows conclusively what Mr. Vogt had in mind when he went to Europe?

Mr. TOLAND. I have a document written from his superior to the Board, with respect to his leave, in which the document reads as follows:

Examiner Herbert J. Vogt, who started in our employ on June 28, 1937, discussed with me the possibility of securing leave from June 15, 1938 to August 15, 1938, as he is desirous of taking a trip to Germany, Russia, and Italy, to observe labor conditions under dictatorships.

Mr. MURDOCK. Now, that brings me right to the point that I am making, that you have in your hands now, and you have had so frequently during these hearings that it has become a custom, as I see it, to have the exhibit which gives the evidence fully as to what you want to prove, and instead of handing that to the witness and letting him look it over, and identify it and then put it in, you first go through this system of cross-examining him to see if he will disagree with what the exhibit has to say. Mr. TOLAND. Not necessarily to see if he disagrees, but to see what The CHAIRMAN. Let's go on with it now. Mr. TOLAND. The document is in evidence. Do you know Mr. Loevinger? Mr. Vogt. Yes. Mr. TOLAND. Will you tell the committee what his status is?

Mr. Vogt. Lee Loevinger at the present time is the regional attorney of Minneapolis.

Mr. TOLAND. Will vou tell the committee who Mr. Wiener is?
Mr. Vogt. Mr. Wiener is—you mean, Robert J. Wiener?
Mr. TOLAND. Yes.
Mr. Vogt. He is the regional director in Minneapolis.
Mr. TOLAND. He is your superior; is he not?
Mr. Vogt. That is correct.

Mr. TOLAND. Have you ever dared Mr. Wiener to come into the State of Iowa that you construed to be your territory?

Mr. Vogt. I don't think I dared him.
Mr. TOLAND. Well, did you ever tell him to keep out?

Mr. Vogt. I told him on certain occasions it would probably be best that two persons don't work on the same case at the same time, so we would know what the other one was doing.

Mr. TOLAND. What is your relationship with Mr. Wiener; is it a relationship that is ordinarily expected between a regional director and one of his assistants?

Mr. Voor. I think I know what you are getting at

Mr. TOLAND (interposing). I am not asking you that, I am not asking you that question.

he will say.

Mr. Vogt. I say our relationship at the present time is very good.
Mr. TOLAND. It is?
Mr. VOGT. Yes.

Mr. TOLAND. Mr. Chairman, I would like to offer in evidence a communication from Miss Stern to the Chairman of the Board, dated September 19, 1939, found in the files. It is a photostatic reproduction of a copy that was in Miss Stern's file.

(Photostatic reproduction of letter from Miss Beatrice Stern to the Chairman of the Board, dated September 19, 1939, was received in evidence, marked "Exhibit No. 1363," and follows.)

Mr. MURDOCK. Before we leave this other exhibit, Mr. Vogt-
Mr. Vogt (interposing). What exhibit was that?

Mr, MURDOCK. The exhibit that indicates that you want to study labor relations in Italy, Russia, and Germany; did you indicate to the writer of that letter that it was your intention to study labor relations in all countries of Europe which you might visit during your trip?

Mr. Vogt. Absolutely. The reason I got that idea is that you will recall President Roosevelt had appointed a committee to go over there and study, particularly in England, Norway, and Sweden, and I remember telling—my memory is refreshed in telling Mr. Bajork, "I'm going to extend that study a little farther. I am going to those

I countries also, and go down into Germany, and Russia, and Italy." I never got to Russia. I didn't have time to get in. The time that it would take to try to get in was too great a time, so I couldn't have made application.

The CHAIRMAN. Why did you want to extend the President's inquiry to include dictatorship countries in the study if the President did not see fit to do so?

Mr. Vogt. I didn't mean any reflection on the President there. I was doing it for my own personal benefit to give myself greater background in labor relations, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. How would you get a better background by studying labor relations in dictatorship countries?

Mr. Vogt. I think you could get comparisons between labor relations in democracies and totalitarian countries.

The CHAIRMAN. Why, and for what purpose ?
Mr. Vogt. Just to get the comparison and see what happens.
The CHAIRMAN. Why and for what purpose ?

Mr. Vogt. I don't quite know what you mean by that, when you say "why and for what purpose."

The CHAIRMAN. Is that your answer to the question?
Mr. Vogt. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you desire to make any further answer, if you do, you may make it. If not, that is all I have to ask.

Mr. TOLAND. Did you make

The CHAIRMAN (interposing). Let the witness answer the question if he desires to do so.

Mr. Vogt. All I meant to say there is that I wanted to get a better background and a comparison of what was happening.

The CHAIRMAN. I have no further questions.
Mr. ToLAND. Did you make any report of your trip to Europe?
Mr. Voor. No.
Mr. TOLAND. On the conditions that you found there?

Mr. Vogt. Not a written report.

Mr. TOLAND. Exhibit 1363 just offered in evidence by myself reads as follows: MRS. BEATRICE

Mr. MURDOCK (interposing). I would like to get an answer. asked one question, and then the chairman took the ball and then counsel took the ball. Now, if it is agreeable, I would like to ask one or two questions.

(Off the record.)

Mr. MURDOCK. Now, did you make the trip to Europe at your own expense?

Mr. Vogt. Yes, sir.

Mr. MURDOCK. And just what countries did you visit, if you remember?

Mr. Vogt. I visited Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, and what used to be Austria, and Italy.

Mr. MURDOCK. But you didn't get into Russia ?
Mr. Voor. No, sir.

Mr. MURDOCK. But you would have gone to Russia if you had had the time?

Mr. VOGT. That is correct.

Mr. MURDOCK. And don't you think that probably even a study of conditions in Russia might enlarge your background with reference to labor relations?

Mr. Vogt. I thought so at that time, yes.

Mr. MURDOCK. And if conditions with reference to labor were bad in the dictator countries, or if they are good as far as labor relations are concerned, isn't it your opinion that we should know something about them here in the United States?

Mr. Voor. That is correct.

Mr. MURDOCK. And that we can't appreciate the labor relations in our own country, and the advantages of our own country, unless we see some of the disadvantages in Russia, Italy, and Germany!

Mr. Vogt. That is correct. In fact, I made a statement once that I never realized what a great country the United States was until I looked at it from a long distance.

Mr. MURDOCK. And it might not be a bad thing for a lot of other people in this country to visit Russia, Italy, and Germany, in order to increase their appreciation of what we have in the United States, isn't that right?

Mr. Vogt. Absolutely.

Mr. MURDOCK. Now, did you investigate labor conditions in all of the countries that you visited ?

Mr. Vogt. I investigated labor relations, what I could, in Iceland, there wasn't much there; in Norway, Sweden, and Denmark, particularly. I was cut off nosing around, so to speak, investigating labor relations in Germany and Italy, so I didn't get much chance, only what I could get from the people on the street.

Nr. MURDOCK. Now, did you make this trip at your own expense? Mr. Vogt. Yes, sir.

Mr. MURDOCK. And you weren't traveling at the Government's expense?

Mr. Voor. No, sir.

Mr. MURDOCK. Nor at the expense of A. F. of L. or C. I. O.?
Mr. Vogt. That is correct.

Mr. MURDOCK. Do you feel that as a result of your European visit that you have increased your efficiency in labor relations here in the United States and your ability to understand them and to solve them?

Mr. Vogt. I feel I have.
Mr. MURDOCK. I believe that is all.

Mr. Routzohn. It has been my observation that too many employees of the National Labor Relations Board have enlarged their background with studies of what has gone on in Russia to the extent that they have the Russian complex, rather than the American.

Mr. MURDOCK. Now, Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask

Mr. ROUTZOHN (interposing). I want that to go in the record at this point.

Mr. MURDOCK. I have no objection whatever, but I would like to ask the gentleman from Ohio at this time to give me the names of any employees of the National Labor Relations Board that have visited Russia.

Mr. Routzoux. Well, Dr. Saposs is the leading spirit.
Mr. MURDOCK. I think the evidence of Dr. Saposs-

Mr. RouTZOHN (interposing). He is on the Labor Board and he came from Russia to start with, and he hasn't gotten away from it, even though he has moved to America.

Mr. MURDOCK. I don't recall, however, that there is one bit of evidence before this committee at this time--and if there is I hope the gentleman will call it to my attention-where one employee of the National Labor Relations Board has visited Russia.

Mr. ROUTZOHN. Another gentleman who took the stand the other day: I can't think of his name.

Mr. MURDOCK. Can the gentleman give me the name of any employee of the National Labor Relations Board that has visited Russia during the time he was an employee of the Board ?

Mr. Routzohn. They didn't have to; they have been getting too much of the Russian stuff over here, along with Karl Marx and his doctrine. They didn't have to go over there.

Mr. MURDOCK. But the gentleman has made the statement there are too many employees of the National Labor Relations Board have visited Russia, and that as a result of that they have too much of a Russian complex and not enough of the American. Now, if the gentleman can give me one name of an employee of the National Labor Relations Board that has visited Russia while he was such an employee, I want him to do it.

Mr. Routzoun. My colleague is begging the question and misquoting me. I did not say that they had visited; I said they had enlarged their background, and I was using the gentleman's own language.

Mír. MURDOCK. Then I am mistaken if you didn't make that statement, and I would like to have it read at this time in order to clear up that point. I said they had enlarged their background and I was using your language in quoting you at the time.

The REPORTER (reading): Mr. Rou'TZOHN. It is my observation that too many employees of the National Labor Relations Board have enlarged their background with studies of what has gone on in Russia to the extent that they have the Russian complex rather than the American.

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