Mr. TOLAND. I am asking you now if you ever made that statement. The CHAIRMAN. Well, if you have a document and the witness wants to refresh his recollection, he may do so.

Mr. TOLAND. Well, I will offer in evidence proceedings of the Second Constitutional Convention of the Iowa-Nebraska States Industrial Union Council, and I show you page 71, and ask you if that isn't the speech that you made at that convention?

Mr. MURDOCK. I think you just offer it

Mr. TOLAND (interposing). I offer it in evidence.

Mr. MURDOCK. Instead of introducing it, you now offer it.

Mr. TOLAND. Yes.

Mr. VOGT. Yes; I made this speech at the second convention.

Mr. TOLAND. I offer in evidence the document identified by the witness.

(Copy of proceedings of the Second Constitutional Convention of the Iowa-Nebraska States Industrial Union Council, August 25, 26, 27, 1939, Omaha, Nebr., was received in evidence, marked "Exhibit No. 1376," and follows.)

Mr. VOGT. I assume that is a correct transcript of the speech that I made.

Mr. MURDOCK. Have you looked it over, Mr. Vogt, to know whether it substantially gives and reports the speech that you made?

Mr. VOGT. No; I haven't looked it over.

Mr. MURDOCK. Well, I suggest that you do that before you identify it as your speech.

Mr. TOLAND. Read it over.

Mr. VOGT. Yes; I think it contains substantially the remarks that I made. That first paragraph is a pat on the back to make at any speech to any convention. When I talked to the A. F. of L., I patted them on the back, too.

Mr. MURDOCK. Was the speech made at a C. I. O. convention?
Mr. VOGT. Yes.

Mr. TOLAND. Now, Mr.

Mr. MURDOCK (interposing). Your statement is that if you were addressing an A. F. of L. convention that you'd probably preface your remarks by some commendatory statement to them?

Mr. VOGT. In fact, I did when I talked at the A. F. of L. convention at Dubuque.

Mr. MURDOCK. That is kind of a common thing for a speaker to do, Mr. Vogt?

Mr. VOGT. It usually is.

Mr. REILLY. I read from Exhibit No. 1376, which is the proceedings of the Second Constitutional Convention, Iowa-Nebraska States Industrial Union Council, August 25, 26, 27, 1939, Omaha, Nebr.

ADDRESS BY HERBERT J. VOGT

One of the things that has amazed all of those who are interested in labor and labor movement has been the rapid and phenomenal growth of the Congress of Industrial Organization in the past two years. From nothing to over four million members strong.

Unions throughout the country will have to build themselves a home against the threatening storm of economic winters. In the face of the approaching bitter winter cold of reaction, you may be complimented upon building such a fine shelter for your members now and in the future. But in these times, it will take

more than compliments to maintain that structure you have built. There can be no resting on your laurels. Temples of unionism have been built and destroyed in the past and there have been divisions in labor households before. And in more than one sense these divisions have been a calamity to all working people.

The only way for continued progress is for each and every delegate here present to be responsible not only for keeping the fires of effective unionism and democracy in industry burning ever brighter, but for kindling new fires which will attract more working men into the home of labor and give them a sense of dependability, security and warmth.

Today, more than at any time in the past, it is important that we find a peaceful solution to the question of providing the standard of living which our great storehouse of God-given resources can provide us. In the face of the blustering winds of vicious propaganda; in the fact of the stupid, insincere but boldly devastating attacks upon the rights of the working man to gain security in his person, job and a livelihood for his family, the fires of unionism will have to be fed with the proper kind of fuel. A fuel which will protect from the chilly draughts of temporary setbacks; a fuel which will feed the fire and burn brightly under seemingly adverse conditions and will keep the fires of unionism brighter and brighter.

The miner's delegates are familiar with the fuel of coal. They know there are different kinds of coal, some good, some bad, and that heat depends upon different elements. But they also know that even poor coal can be made to give good results under proper conditions. Following this analogy, you should not be depressed, as human beings will often be, at the stumbling and halting of imperfect human leadership. Nor should those upon whom devolves the job of directing and maintaining the organization be discouraged by the seemingly slow progress in raising standards or in building and maintaining the fires of unionism. As better methods of firing, grading the fuel, and different types of grates and drafts improve the consumption of fuel under modern conditions, so from my observations and experience, I would say that the fuel for the fire of unionism can be represented by the lettersC-O-A-L.

Let each letter stand for one quality. Let us say that:
C-Stands for Courage, to support sound union principles.
O-Obedience to sound union principles.

A-Accountability to sound union principles, and

L-Loyalty to sound union principles.

Now I am not thinking of the particular brand of courage necessary to stand up on the picket line and fight a scab when attacked or provoked to defend yourself. That has its place, however. But I am thinking more of the kind of courage to stand up for the truth; the willingness to face facts about modern conditions; the courage to battle for unionism in industrial plants; the courage to be patient and persevering in face of misunderstanding on the one hand, and misrepresentation on the other; the courage to be effective unionists, not mere order takers.

It is difficult to keep your eyes on the goal of greater democracy, in the face of the name calling and reactionary campaign against your rights. But as one who has visited within the past year the Scandinavian countries, where industrial democracy has reached a high point; where over ninety per cent of the working people are members of unions; and where they have played an important part in stabilizing conditions throughout the depressionor rather where they have scarcely been touched by the depression; and again as one who has observed how the rights of labor have been ruthlessly destroyed under totalitarian governments, I want to say it takes a greater brand of courage to keep cool, parry with misrepresentation and keep driving on to the goal of greater democracy and the highest standard of living possible.

The general public, as well as your members, need to be reminded of a very important economic study made by the Brookings institute, which no one will accuse of being a radical group. We need to be reminded that it was the accumulation of excess profits which led to the speculation and resulting depression in 1929. The Brookings Institute several years after made this startling statement-that if in 1929 there had been a strong enough union movement to have demanded and gotten a 10 per cent raise for the workers in this country, the flow of buying power would have been corrected, and there would have been no depression.

Startling-yes, there need have been no depression. But there was practically no organization among industrial workers. There was no organization strong enough to have turned the tide. The research departments of the unions were not developed sufficiently to give the right kind of advice to the workers as to what was approaching. We say it entirely sympathetically, the majority of the union leaders were so engrossed in the struggle to maintain their organizations in face of the speculative prosperity that they could not cope with the larger problems confronting them.

Employees of industrial plants do present special problems. Perhaps certain unionists are right when they say the industrial employee will slip away, and will not stick. Perhaps you can be made to fight among yourselves until you cannot bring about the necessary unity in the labor movement to support your industrial organizations. But only a strong mass union movement can become the means of a peaceful, steady shift in the buying power of the working people to solve the serious maladjustments hampering prosperity. And to build, and hold that necessary brand of unionism will take courage.

Obedience. Again I am talking about obedience to sound union principles. I am not talking about obedience as blind order taking from elected officers. I am talking about that higher kind of obedience necessary to the operation of real democracy. I am intolerant of the idea that a union should be run by the local president, or by the state president or by the International president. I am talking about real industrial democracy, where there is obedience to principle. It is necessary that officers be given special training whenever possible, that they keep on their toes and abreast of modern economic developments, and that they should serve in an advisory capacity. I am talking about that kind of obedience and self discipline which gives men the strength to stand up for the right.

Nor am I, when speaking of accountability, talking about the kind wanted by those who would pickpocket the treasuries of your unions. I am not talking about making unionism accountable to the bosses or the manufacturers' associations. I am not talking about the kind of accountability which would let spies run away with your organization. I am talking about that accountability of your better self to that higher social need of the worker; of your responsibility to your fellow workers, to protect not only your personal rights and gains, but to protect the less fortunate worker and to bring about a general bettering of conditions for your entire working group. I am thinking about your accountability for honest political duty, for civic duty and understanding of the broader state and national problems; of making yourself better informed on economics and business; of giving honest support to sound union programs, and to those delegated to carry out that program. For in this highly complicated industrial age you do become your brother's keeper, whether you like it or not.

And L stands for Loyalty to sound union principles. I am not talking about the kind of loyalty which declares, "what I cannot control I will destroy." I am talking about an attitude of live and let live. I mean a loyalty to a program which will make it easier for all to live, and that will give the greatest good to the greatest number and the fullest life possible. That must be the goal.

And I am sure that when the rank and file are given the proper fuel by the leaders, and when they understand the program and the need for that program that the workers will rise to the occasion.

That is the end of the address by the witness.

Mr. TOLAND. Now, Mr. Vogt, we haven't been able to find any printed speech that you ever made to an A. F. of L. union, and if you can tell us where and in what book any speech that you ever made to an A. F. of L. union can be found, we will get it and put it in the record, also.

Mr. VOGT. I don't know of any printed-I will say that I used this same speech and talked to the carpenters and joiners in Dubuque ; and Rolland White, the Dubuque leader, kidded me about it, and said, "That is the same speech that you gave to the C. I. O." I just changed my heading. I recall that I gave that speech to the Clinton Co. employees. They have a Federal Labor Union affiliated with

the A. F. of L., and that wasn't printed. I don't know, to answer your question specifically, I don't know of any speech where any of my speeches would be printed.

Mr. TOLAND. If that is one, I'd like to give you an opportunity to file one. If you can find one that is printed in a form like that, even after your return, if you will send it to me I will put it in the record.

Now, I'd like to ask you if you ever solicited letters of commendation at the time that there had been criticisms made about you. Mr. VOGT. Did I ever

Mr. TOLAND (interposing). Did you ever go to union officials and solicit from them letters of commendation about your activities when criticisms had been filed about the Board?

Mr. VOGT. No; I didn't solicit letters.

Mr. MURDOCK. Before we leave this speech that you made, Mr. Vogt, if I can interrupt counsel, it seems that in that speech you very definitely and rather emphatically compare conditions in Italy and Germany as you found them, as compared to what they were in the Scandinavian democracies.

Mr. VOGT. That's right.

Mr. TOLAND. And as I interpret the speech, you rather favored what you found in the Scandinavian democracies as contrasted or compared to what you found in the dictator countries; is that right? Mr. VOGT. Absolutely correct.

Mr. TOLAND. Now, you say that you gave practically or in substance the same speech before some A. F. of L. unions.

Mr. VOGT. That is correct.

Mr. TOLAND. Do you remember when it was and where?

Mr. VOGT. No; I would say that it was shortly after I gave this speech here, the fall of that year.

Mr. TOLAND. Where?

Mr. VOGT. In Dubuque and in Clinton.

Mr. TOLAND. At what unions?

Mr. VOGT. It was the A. F. of L. union, the Carpenters and Joiners, in Dubuque, as I recall, and the A. F. of L. union in Clinton, which is called the Federal Labor Union, that is, the employees of the sugar refinery, or the sugar company in Clinton, I believe.

Mr. TOLAND. You made the speech at union meetings? At regularly constituted meetings of the unions?

Mr. VOGT. That is correct.

Mr. MURDOCK. And it is a speech in your opinion, is it not, Mr. Vogt, that would be just as well received by one labor organization as another?

Mr. VOGT. Yes. I think it is a little idealistic after I go over it, but I think it is something for all union people to shoot at.

Mr. TOLAND. Now, while there is no printed record of your speech before the union at Keokuk, Iowa, in behalf of Mr. Carter-that was an A. F. of L. union, was it not?

Mr. VOGT. Oh, yes; Trades and Labor Assembly of A. F. of L.

Mr. TOLAND. And Mr. Carter was an official of some A. F. of L. union?

Mr. VOGT. That's right; the Teamsters, and he also was the editor of the A. F. of L. paper in Dubuque. He had both jobs.

Mr. TOLAND. So that you have been, have you not, very friendly with the A. F. of L. people?

Mr. VOGT. Yes.

Mr. TOLAND. Would you say just as friendly, notwithstanding implications that your complexion might be C. I. O., as you have been friendly to C. I. O.?

Mr. VOGT. With the A. F. of L.; yes.

it?

Mr. TOLAND. Do you think that the A. F. of L. people would say Mr. VOGT. Yes; I think I have more friends among the A. F. of L. than with the C. Í. O., because I was predominantly A. F. of L. along the river there.

(Off the record remarks by Mr. Murdock.)

Mr. TOLAND. Now, Mr. Vogt, did you in Sioux City, at a meeting with the Cudahy Co., take union cards, union membership cards of members that were employees in the Armour and Swift plants and place them with the membership cards of employees of the Cudahy plant in order to show to the company that the employees' union in the Cudahy plant had a majority?

Mr. VOGT. No.

Mr. TOLAND. Is it a fact that you asked members of the union in Sioux City to write to the C. I. O. general office in Washington, complaining about Mr. Wiener, the regional director?

Mr. VOGT. I don't recall.

Mr. TOLAND. Would you say you didn't?

Mr. VOGT. I don't recall. I'd say I didn't.

Mr. TOLAND. Do you recall making a statement at a C. I. O. meeting in Sioux City that you would give a big dinner to the one that got the most members within a certain period of time?

Mr. VOGT. No; I don't.

Mr. TOLAND. Are you friendly with Mr. Ballard, who is the president of the C. I. O. union in Sioux City?

Mr. VOGT. Yes.

Mr. TOLAND. Have you used his office and his secretary for work? Mr. VOGT. Yes.

Mr. TOLAND. Was it a fact that you kept in constant communication with Mr. Ballard and advised him as to the activities of the A. F. of L. and independent unions, particularly with respect to the Rath Packing Co. at Waterloo?

Mr. VOGT. I don't think so. I know he made several inquiries as he had the responsibility of that territory at that time. He made inquiries.

Mr. TOLAND. In the spring of 1938, after the charges were filed in the Cudahy Packing Company case, did you make a speech to the C. I. O. union in Old Moose Hall, in Sioux City, a pep talk? Mr. VOGT. I don't recall.

Mr. TOLAND. Would you say you did not?

Mr. VOGT. I made some speeches to the C. I. O. group down there, but I don't know whether I made any at that particular time.

Mr. TOLAND. Have you ever made the statement that after an election in which the C. I. O. was the victor and the election was closed, quoting you, "We went out and had a hell of a time"? Did you ever make that statement?

Mr. VOGT. Not that I know of.