should exist in the minds of the members of the committee, that the mixing of the flour is an arbitrary proposition, that a man might go to work and take a soft wheat flour and blend that with a large amount of cornstarch, because if he did that he would not get, very likely, a mixed flour, which would suit the requirements of his particular trade. Therefore the millers and they are all intelligent men-will use, will employ science in their mixing business. They will have their consulting chemists, as they have them to-day, and the consulting chemist will say now, you have a carload of wheat, say, durum wheat, containing 14 per cent gluten. Now, in order to bring that to the standard of soft winter-wheat flour, you may add 12 per cent to 14 per cent of cornstarch, and then you will have a very fine, mixed flour containing about 2 per cent less gluten than the original wheat flour which you employed. Now, next month you may have another carload, and you may take a larger amount of cornstarch or you may take a smaller amount of cornstarch, depending on the advice of your consulting chemist, and depending upon the gluten content of your flour.

Mr. COLLIER. I understood you to say that if a baker were to put 49 per cent starch in flour it would make the bread hard like a brick. The question I asked and the point I want to bring out is, How much of this corn flour can be mixed with the wheat flour to make a loaf of bread so that the average purchaser would think he was buying wheat bread?

Mr. WAGNER. We have found that the addition of 20 per cent makes a very fine bread. Of course, Mr. Congressman, you will bear in mind that very poor bread can also be made from straight wheat flour. I have seen it; I do not know whether you have or not. I have seen lots of it in traveling around the country, and I know that very poor bread can be made and is made from straight wheat flour.

Mr. FORDNEY. But that is not the fault of the wheat, but in the baking.

Mr. WAGNER. No; I would not agree with that. Mr. Congressman. I would say that the fault is in both.

Mr. COLLIER. I was not using the expression " poor bread," because it is a matter of taste whether a man would prefer what would be called corn bread or wheat bread, but I wanted to know what is the amount of corn meal that is used in this trade generally. Is it 80 per cent of wheat flour and 20 per cent of corn flour? Is that about what is generally used?

Mr. WAGNER. I think so.

Mr. COLLIER. Have you ever seen as much as 30 per cent of corn flour?

Mr. WAGNER. Not for bread making; no.

Mr. HELVERING. Wheat contains 14.6 per cent of gluten?

Mr. WAGNER. Wheat flour, you mean?

Mr. HELVERING. Yes, sir.

Mr. WAGNER. That is a question. I do not know.

Mr. HELVERING. And the higher the gluten quality the more corn

flour you can put in?

Mr. WAGNER. Yes; I think so.

Mr. HELVERING. Thirty-five per cent to 45 per cent of corn flour mixed with wheat flour will make a loaf which, in appearance, is a good deal like a wheat loaf?

Mr. WAGNER. It would be soggy. That is the way I would put it, from what I have seen. I would say it would be soggy and heavy. Mr. MOORE. Mr. Wagner, are you president of the American Association of Products from Corn?

Mr. WAGNER. No.

Mr. MOORE. Who is the president of that association?

Mr. WAGNER. Mr. Kersting, of Clinton, Iowa.

Mr. MOORE. And of what association is Mr. Asher Miner president?

Mr. WAGNER. The National Association of White Corn Millers. Mr. MOORE. You appear here as representing the American Manufacturers' Association of Products from Corn.

Mr. WAGNER. The company I am identified with is a member of that association.

Mr. MOORE. What is that company?

Mr. WAGNER. The Corn Products Refining Co.

Mr. MOORE. Where is it located?

Mr. WAGNER. At New York City, 17 Battery Place.
Mr. MOORE. You are a purchaser of corn, are you?
Mr. WAGNER. We are.

Mr. MOORE. Will you tell us the difference between white corn and yellow corn as used in bread making?

Mr. WAGNER. I do not know that I understand your question. Mr. MOORE. As to the bread-making qualities of white and yellow corn, I would like to know the difference: Whether white corn is more serviceable, and whether it is more generally used than yellow

corn.

Mr. WAGNER. Well, Mr. Congressman, that is a question that is really outside my line.

Mr. MOORE. I asked Mr. Haskell, the secretary of the National Association of White Corn Millers, that question yesterday, and I had some doubt as to whether I was clear on the subject.

Mr. WAGNER. I believe I understand what is in your mind, Mr. Congressman. I think Mr. Haskell created the impression that yellow corn would give a yellow product, which is quite true; but of course in the manufacture of starch we use yellow corn, and I think, as a matter of fact, most of our corn is yellow corn, but it makes perfectly white starch, as you see it before you here.

Mr. MOORE. But the impression that Mr. Haskell left on my mind. was that yellow corn was not as valuable for mixing with wheat as white corn.

Mr. WAGNER. No, Mr. Congressman, the starch from white corn and yellow corn is identically the same. It is all white. But in the manufacture of dry milled products a large amount of gluten, which has a yellow color, remains in the corn meal or corn flour, and of course, due to physical laws, that yellow gluten imparts to that otherwise white starch of the corn a yellowish tinge.

Mr. MOORE. You say that the starch from the yellow corn does not differ in color from the starch from the white corn?

Mr. WAGNER. Not a bit.

Mr. MOORE. The color would be identical?

Mr. WAGNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. MOORE. And therefore if it were used in bread making it could not be detected, that is, the difference between the yellow corn and white corn could not be detected?

Mr. WAGNER. As starch, no.

Mr. MOORE. Well, as to corn meal, would that same condition as to color hold true?

Mr. WAGNER. It is very likely as to corn meal their product would have a yellowish tinge if they used yellow corn, due to the gluten content, but not to starch.

Mr. MOORE. What is the difference between corn meal and con flour?

Mr. WAGNER. It is only in the degree of fineness. One is a finely powdered product and the other is a little coarser, and from the analyses that I have seen from time to time I would say that the corn flour contained a somewhat larger percentage of cornstarch.

Mr. MOORE. Would there be any difference in the color of corn meal made from yellow and white corn?

Mr. WAGNER. Now, Mr. Congressman, I have had no personal experience in the manufacture of dry milled corn products, and could give you only my opinion for whatever it may be worth.

Mr. MOORE. Would not the color affect the commercial use of mixed flour? Would that not affect the very business that you are evidently intending to develop?

Mr. WAGNER. Well, I would say this, that from the baking tests which I have seen of bread being made from wheat flour and cornstarch the color of the bread obtained is whiter than that made from straight wheat flour. Now, then, if you take a mixture of wheat flour and corn meal, which latter product has a slightly yellowish tinge, I should judge that the color of the bread obtained therefrom is equal in shade and lightness to that made from many grades of wheat flour. It may be a little darker that is true, but I do not think it would be dark enough to seriously affect the quality of the bread. I mean to say by that that the corn loaves will be used just as freely regardless of that slightly darker shade.

Mr. MOORE. Assuming that the consuming public is governed very largely by the color and the quality, would it not be prejudiced against bread not made from pure wheat flour?

Mr. WAGNER. I would say that if they were prejudiced against that product then they would have to be prejudiced in favor of bread made from wheat flour and cornstarch because that would be still whiter than that obtained from straight wheat flour. That holds good both ways if there is any such prejudice. I do not know. I have not made any investigation on that subject. Then again, you may know that there is on the market the so-called whole wheat bread and Graham bread. We have dark-colored bread. That is simply a popular fancy. I personally do not like white bread.

Mr. DIXON. Do I understand now in order to successfully mix the flour it would require a chemical examination?

Mr. WAGNER. Examination of what, Mr. Congressman?

Mr. DIXON. As to the contents of the wheat flour, the gluten, so as know the quantity of corn flour that we can mix with it successfully?

Mr. WAGNER. I do not believe so, Mr. Congressman, because I think any up-to-date, aggressive, intelligent miller knows, as he goes on with his milling, the amount of gluten contained in his wheat flour, so that it is only a matter of arithmetic to determine the amount of other ingredients which he should have in his flour.

Mr. DIXON. But there is a difference in different kinds of wheat. Mr. WAGNER. Oh, yes; but he follows that up from day to day. Mr. DIXON. How does he follow it up from day to day?

Mr. WAGNER. He sends his flour to the chemist to have it analyzed. Dr. Wesener testified yesterday that he gets samples of flour from a large number of mills in this country, and his report covers primarily that of the gluten contents.

Mr. DIXON. You would not expect the ordinary country miller to be able to mix the flour successfully, because he can not afford the employment of a chemist for that purpose.

Mr. WAGNER. But I think that even the country miller would be very soon educated to mix his flour in a proper way. It is not a scientific matter, as you gentlemen may assume from listening to the talk of these learned gentlemen here. It sounds big, but it is about the same thing as the farmer following up his purchases of gluten feed, and the like, for his stock.

Mr. DIXON. But the country miller, without the services of a chemist to give him accurately the contents, would be placed at a disadvantage in his mixture, as compared with the large manufacturer who has an expert chemist at his hand to examine daily the contents of the flour, would he not? Would he not be placed to a disadvantage?

Mr. WAGNER. I understand that the country miller is in the habit of mixing or doughing up, as we call it, his flour, to get the strength of it. He gets that every day as a practical test.

Mr. FORDNEY. Would not the country miller who is not equipped for making corn flour be compelled to purchase his corn flour and mix it with his wheat flour, in the little country mill?

Mr. WAGNER. Would he not be compelled to purchase his corn flour?

Mr. FORDNEY. To purchase it of some manufacturer of corn flour who is equipped for the purpose of making corn flour?

Mr. WAGNER. Oh, that is a simple operation.

Mr. FORDNEY. He could not manufacture it himself in his millthe country mill?

Mr. WAGNER. Yes, he could. How much more machinery does it take to make dry milled corn goods than wheat products? It takes very much less machinery. After they once go into the dry corngoods business it is an easy thing for him to do.

Mr. FORDNEY. He would have to equip his mill for it.

Mr. WAGNER. He has got to buy a few more machines; but what is that?

Mr. FORDNEY. He could not make corn flour in the ordinary flour mill with ordinary bolting cloth, could he?

Mr. WAGNER. I would not say no, but I will say I do not know. I would not say that is impossible, because in our business we employ very much the same process as they employ. I do not see

why the corn miller could not use the same machinery. As a matter of fact, I am inclined to think that they did do it at one time.

Mr. FORDNEY. Do you mean to say that you could make corn flour from the entire product of the kernel or berry without making any other product from that kernel-by-product, you might call it? In other words, let me see if I make myself clear. Can you convert the entire kernel of corn into corn flour?

Mr. WAGNER. You can not do that any more than the wheat miller can convert all his grain into one product without producing a by-product. The wheat miller is as much a producer of byproducts as the corn miller-every bit as much.

Mr. FORDNEY. What I am getting at is, it has been testified here that cornstarch, hominy, grits, and many other things are made from corn, and that the corn flour made from the kernel of corn is but a small portion of the product of the kernel.

Mr. WAGNER. Mr. Congressman, that is simply a question of demand and supply. Let the demand increase for that product and you will see that the dry corn millers will turn out a much larger percentage of their grain in the form of corn flour than they do at the present time.

Mr. FORDNEY. I am asking for information.

Mr. WAGNER. They have had a ready market, a large market. for the coarse product. The brewers use it, for instance, and bakers, too; then table food, corn flakes, and the like. That trade calls for the coarse-milled product. Let the tax on mixed flour be removed. let this law be repealed, and there will be a great demand, I judge, for the fine corn flour.

Mr. FORDNEY. Those products, however, are not termed as obviously the by-products, like the bran, and so on, from the wheat mill?

Mr. WAGNER. Oh, no. Those are products which every miller would designate as primary products, and those by-products are looked upon as secondary products.

Mr. FORDNEY. Is the high-grade corn likely to be used to as great an advantage in making cornstarch or corn flour?

Mr. WAGNER. Oh, yes. Yes, sir.

Mr. FORDNEY. Do you use all of the American corn, or have you ever used any Argentine corn in your product?

Mr. WAGNER. When you say "you" whom do you mean?
Mr. FORDNEY. The firm you
Mr. WAGNER. Oh, my firm.

fining Co.?

represent.

You mean the Corn Products Re

Mr. FORDNEY. The people you are representing here to-day. Mr. WAGNER. One member has used Argentine corn, and that member happens to be located on the seaboard, has used it just to test out its feasibility.

Mr. FORDNEY. I gathered from statistics furnished by the Department of Commerce and Labor here a couple of years ago, 1913 and 1914, that a very large amount of corn came from the Argentine Republic and was used by the Corn Products peoplechiefly used by them.

Mr. WAGNER. It is quite true, but I want to say, in that connection that that corn was used solely in the manufacture of export goods. It did not compete in any way with goods manufactured and