and I do not want to be misunderstood as to that, and I do not want to pry into the private business of any concern that is doing a legitimate business, but I would like to ask whether you heard the letter which I read yesterday from the Secretary of Agriculture, Mr. Houston, as to the non-use, to any extent, of corn-made bread in Europe?

Mr. WAGNER. I do not know that I recall the language.

Mr. MOORE. Well, I read a letter from the Secretary which indicated that corn bread was not very popular in Europe.

say

Mr. WAGNER. I do not know about that. I only know that the Government sent experts over there to preach the gospel of corn, but with what success they met I do not know. But I do know this, that we have sold in the European market enormous amounts—I enormous advisedly enormous amounts of our cornstarch known as Maizena, and when I was traveling abroad a few years ago it was a source of eminent satisfaction to me to see that American made cornstarch in almost every store that I entered, and upon asking the shopkeeper about that particular brand he would say, "Oh, well, I know that we make starch in this country, too, but the people here all inquire for that yellow package with the Indian on it." That is the Maizena brand.

Mr. MOORE. That is used not for bread making exclusively, in fact it is used very seldom for making bread?

Mr. WAGNER. Well. I have no great knowledge on that particular subject.

Mr. MOORE. There are a number of recipes on the label which indicates that that enters into the making of cake.

Mr. WAGNER. And puddings and things of that kind. I think that is the principal use.

Mr. MOORE. And of course they are not doing that to any great extent in Europe now, I assume. I want to find out whether your European market is purchasing mixed flour or corn products for the purpose of making bread?

Mr. WAGNER. I will say that the housewife abroad is in the habit, to my knowledge, of employing starch of American manufacture in the making of bread.

Mr. MOORE. You know that to be a fact?

Mr. WAGNER. I know that to be a fact, and therefore I have no doubt that a comparatively large amount of this starch will find its way into the bread made abroad by the housewife.

Mr. MOORE. You say that you are users of yellow as well as white corn?

Mr. WAGNER. Yes, sir. We make no distinction.

Mr. MOORE. And would you say that if there is any discrimination existing under the present law that it would be a discrimination against both grades of corn?

Mr. WAGNER. Absolutely.

Mr. MOORE. But the question is, does the yellow corn enter into the manufacture of bread?

Mr. WAGNER. It only enters into it in that respect that the dry corn miller might prefer the white corn, whereas we take one as readily as the other.

Mr. MOORE. Mr. Haskell told us yesterday that of the 3,000,000,000 bushels of white corn about 100.000.000 bushels were used in the

United States for food products. Mr. Haskell, am I right about that?

Mr. HASKELL. I stated that the total crop for the United States for 1915, the total corn crop, was over 3,000,000,000 bushels. Mr. MOORE. That is white and yellow?

Mr. HASKELL. That is white, yellow, and mixed corn. There is a greater amount of white corn grown in this country than yellow corn, by about 10,000,000 bushels.

Mr. MOORE. And a greater amount of white corn flour goes into the wheat flour than the yellow?

Mr. HASKELL. Naturally, on account of its color. I am talking about the milling end of the business. That is the business I am interested in.

Mr. MOORE. You said that about 100,000,000 bushels were used for bread-making purposes.

Mr. HASKELL. No; I did not say for bread-making purposes. I said for human consumption. Now, I say that because I have never seen any statistics showing how much corn had been used, but a very small portion of the corn crop is used for human food purposes. Mr. MOORE. And the passage of the Rainey bill would permit of a greater use of that corn for food purposes?

Mr. HASKELL. That is our contention, yes.

Mr. MOORE. Now I want to ask Mr. Wagner about the 100,000,000 bushels, being the quantity now used, of corn products for food purposes I mean food purposes in the United States. How much of that 100,000,000 bushels would your concern put through the course of manufacture?

Mr. WAGNER. Our industry, the wet milling industry, would consume of that about 56 per cent; that is about 56,000,000 bushels of corn a year.

Mr. MOORE. That is done under existing law?

Mr. WAGNER. There is no law governing that.
Mr. MOORE. There is the 4 cents a barrel law.

Mr. WAGNER. Oh, there is a misunderstanding between us, I am quite sure. I am speaking of the amount of corn consumed by the wet milling industry of this country.

Mr. MOORE. Which enters into food products?

Mr. WAGNER. For all kinds of products, not only food products but that which enters into products used by the manufacturing industries.

Mr. MOORE. You are asking for the repeal of the law of 1898 on the ground that it is discriminatory, and I am trying to get from you whether you are not now operating under that law, you and others who manufacture from the raw corn, whether you are not now operating to the extent of 100,000,000 bushels of both white and yellow corn, under existing law?

Mr. WAGNER. Not for our purposes, Mr. Congressman; most positively not. I do not think there is any perceptible percentage of the corn ground by us converted to use in mixed flour.

Mr. MOORE. Is not the converse of that proposition this, that if 100,000,000 bushels of corn is being used for the manufacture of food products, cereals or flours, or whatever it may be, it is being done under the law-that is, that it is either being done under the law or in violation of the law?

Mr. WAGNER. If it is used in the making of flour?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. WAGNER. If any food product is being used in the mixing of flour, it is under the law governing that particular manufacture. I have not heard of a single case where a mixed-flour miller used a cornstarch without observing the law.

Mr. MOORE. Doctor, how do you account for Mr. Haskell's statement that 100,000,000 bushels are being used for food purposes, unless that is so?

Mr. WAGNER. There are a great many products other than mixed flour. Take this case of cornstarch. We sell it in large quantities. What has that to do with the mixed-flour law? And yet a large percentage of that 100,000,000 bushels of corn is represented by this particular manufacture.

Mr. MOORE. Corn flour is also being manufactured?

Mr. WAGNER. Yes, corn flour is also being manufactured.
Mr. MOORE. Is that being mixed?

Mr. WAGNER. Yes; but as I understand the general sales manager of the company who was before you, most of that which is being used by the dry corn millers is used for export.

Mr. MOORE. This morning I had a piece of corn bread served to me at breakfast, and afterwards I inquired of the cook how it was made, and it appeared that corn flour entered into it, and butter and sugar and water entered into it also, and that there was always an admixture of wheat. Now, that question arose with me then, why, if this corn bread is popular and people ask for it and want it, can they not get it under existing conditions, having the cooks make it and serve it; why should you not get along under the existing law and have the people ask for corn bread just as they have done heretofore, it being admitted here that 100,000,000 bushels of corn are already being used in the manufacture of food products?

Mr. WAGNER. You are talking about a new product. What we are after is to enable the corn product industry to get its legitimate share of the bread business of this country, and since, from the best opinion I have been able to obtain, at least 70 per cent if not more of the flour is used by the housewives of this country in the baking of bread, we want to enable the housewife to buy that mixed flour in the same manner as she buys the straight flour, and in doing that, in making such provisions, we would enable the housewives of this country to save during the year a sum which I believe is not very far from $20,000,000, to the best of my knowledge.

Mr. MOORE. Do you think, so far as the housewife is concerned, that if we passed the Rainey bill there would be such a difference in cost between the mixed flour when it is put on the market and wheat flour, that the consumer would get any advantage from it whatever in the price of bread?

Mr. WAGNER. Î believe the consumer, the housewife, would get all the benefit from it.

Mr. MOORE. Assuming that the price of a loaf is five cents, and has been for years, do you believe that the price would be reduced to four or four and a half cents if we passed this bill?

Mr. WAGNER. I do not think it would, but the housewife, instead of getting a short loaf weighing 12 ounces, will get her old accus

tomed full size loaf, weighing 16 ounces. In other words, she will be getting 33 per cent more bread for the same amount of money. The nickel is the unit, the same as it is for the street car fare, and I do not know that that would be changed or that it would be advisible to have it changed; but the housewife will get more foodstuff delivered to her than is possible at the present time.

Mr. MOORE. But the quality will be different?

Mr. WAGNER. According to the statements made here yesterday, the quality will be fully as good as that of the bread obtained from the soft winter wheat flour-is that it?

Dr. WESENER. Yes.

Mr. WAGNER. From the soft winter wheat.

Mr. MOORE. How many independent millers are there in the United States, do you know?

Mr. WAGNER. I do not know.

Mr. MOORE. Do you know how many are engaged in the manufacture of corn products? Mr. Haskell said something about it yesterday.

Mr. WAGNER. Yes; a very large number; what we call dry millingwhite corn milling.

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. WAGNER. A very large number.

Mr. MOORE. What would be the effect of the passage of the Rainey bill upon those engaged in that business, assuming that they would have to increase their overhead expense and institute new machinery, probably, and consult chemistry in order to get into that business? Mr. WAGNER. Will you please repeat your question?

Mr. MOORE. Yours is a well organized concern and it is doing a great business, both domestic and export. In competition with you would be various millers throughout the United States who have not the same efficient means of conducting the business that you have. What would be the effect of the passage of the Rainey law upon those independent millers, in view of the fact that they would be up against the question of competition and efficiency, at once?

Mr. WAGNER. I say frankly to you that I think the advantage would lie with the white goods miller, because it costs us a great deal more money to manufacture our products by the wet milling process than it costs the white corn miller to manufacture his by the dry process, no matter what the size of his plant may be.

Mr. MOORE. Does the miller manufacture for export?

Mr. WAGNER. You mean the white corn miller?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. WAGNER. I do not know.

Mr. HASKELL. I can answer that.

Mr. MOORE. How does he dispose of his product?
Mr. HASKELL. I should like to answer that.

Mr. MOORE. Very well.

Mr. HASKELL. They can manufacture for export. They do not all manufacture for export. They do not all have the facilities for exporting.

Mr. MOORE. Exactly. Then, if what they manufacture does enter into the export trade, it enters the export trade through larger operators; is that the idea?

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Mr. HASKELL. Yes.

Mr. WAGNER. May I make one remark. The question of Argentine corn was brought up. The American flour miller to-day grinds Canadian wheat without paying the duty, if such flour is for export, and this grinding and the converting into flour is done under a Government bond, so that the American flour miller grinds foreign grown wheat.

Mr. SLOAN. However, he pays the duty, does he not, if he does not manufacture or mill it for export?

Mr. WAGNER. Sir?

Mr. SLOAN. He does pay a duty on the Canadian wheat if he mills it for domestic sale?

Mr. WAGNER. For domestic sale; yes.

Mr. SLOAN. Ten cents a bushel, is it not?

Mr. LANNEN. Might I ask the witness one question?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. LANNEN. In regard to the reason why the yellow corn millers are not represented here, it might appear that they are not in favor of this bill, and I will ask the witness if the yellow corn millers are organized.

Mr. WAGNER. Will you please repeat the question?

(The stenographer read the question.)

Mr. LANNEN. I mean the dry corn millers?
Mr. WAGNER. The dry yellow corn millers?

Mr. LANNEN. Yes.

Mr. WAGNER. I never heard of any association of those millers. Mr. SLOAN. I should like to ask you one question. One of the reasons you gave for favoring this bill is the interest of the farmer who raises corn?

Mr. WAGNER. I do not want to sail under false colors, we are favoring the bill for selfish reasons as well.

Mr. SLOAN. Yes. I do not say that is the sole reason, but one of the reasons.

Mr. WAGNER. That is all right.

Mr. SLOAN. They also raise wheat for sale and use, and may be somewhat interested in that. Now, I should like to ask you if you were called here to give testimony when the Underwood bill was under consideration in the interest of corn?

Mr. WAGNER. If I was here?

Mr. SLOAN. Yes.

Mr. WAGNER. I, personally?

Mr. SLOAN. Yes, you, personally.

Mr. WAGNER. Mr. Congressman, I have got enough troubles in my business

Mr. SLOAN. You can say yes or no.

Mr. WAGNER. No: I was not here.

Mr. SLOAN. Do you know any of the men who were here, or have been here in the last three days, who were called here in the interest of corn when the Underwood bill was under consideration?

Mr. WAGNER. That subject is so foreign to me

Mr. SLOAN. You can answer me whether you do or no.
Mr. WACNER. I have no knowledge.