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Mr. GREEN. There is no question about that. Starch contains no element that is necessary to the human body.

Mr. BURNS. Yes, sir; it does. It contains carbohydrates almost exclusively and, as I stated before, the trouble with the entire human race in trying to find a balanced ration is to get away from an excess

a of carbohydrates.

Mr. GREEN. These people that have advocated that doctrine have sometimes objected to your bakers' bread, have they not, on the ground that the carbohydrates are not sufficiently present?

Mr. Burns. No; not that they were not sufficiently present in it. I have never heard an objection of that kind.

Mr. GREEN. Well, I have.

Mr. Burns. That there was not enough carbohydrates in wheat bread?

Mr. Green. No, no; that there was too much carbohydrates in it.

Mr. Burns. Well, there is too much. There is no question about that. There is no question. That is why we oppose any addition of it.

Mr. HELVERING. Let me ask you this question: Is it possible to bake from cornstarch a bread that is edible at all?

Mr. Burns. I do not think so. I would not say positively. I suppose if a man was stranded on an ocean island and he had no food in the world but a mass of something made up of cornstarch, he would grab at it and eat it as he would at a reed growing out of the side of the rock.

Mr. RAINEY. They do make lots of food articles out of it to-day, do they not?

Mr. Burns. Yes, sir.
Mr. RAINEY. And they are edible, too?

Mr. Burns. Yes, sir. But all those articles that they make out of it for the table are primarily little delicacies that they like to finish off the meal with or decorate the table with. They do not make any of the staff of life with it. They do not depend on that for their meal. Put a little cornstarch in some pastries to top off the meal with, but do not put it in their bread.

Mr. Rainey. Cornstarch is present a great deal as an ingredient in wheat flour, is it not?

Mr. Burns. Yes, sir; it is. Its principal ingredient in all
Mr. Rainey (interposing). Are they trying to get it out?

Mr. Burns. No, sir; but we are always trying to get that wheat that has the smallest percentage of starch in it and the largest percentage of protein. We are fighting for that constantly, to the extent that we are paying to the miller who can give us the most gluten the highest price for his flour.

Mr. GREEN. That raises better and makes more loaves?

Mr. BURNS. Yes, sir; it does both; and makes better bread—bread which, when you buy it you get more for your money out of.

Mr. GREEN. That is, you mean for the purpose of making food ?

Mr. Burns. Of course, if any of you gentlemen or any of these people concerned about it are troubled with not getting enough carbohydrates, that would apply, but our trouble is all the other way.

Mr. RAINEY. Are there any carbohydrates in water?
Mr. Burns. I am not a chemist.
Mr. Sloan. In what?

Mr. Rainey. In water. Is there any gluten in water!
RAINEY

?
Mr. Burns. I do not believe there is.
Mr. Rainey. It is pretty cheap, is it not?
Mr. Burns. That is pretty cheap; yes, sir.

Mr. RAINEY. Adding to the finished product a cheaper product is adulteration, is it not, according to your theory?

Mr. Burns. Not necessarily; no, sir.

Mr. Rainey. To put in 10 per cent of water in bread-does that adulterate it any?

Mr. Burxs. No, because the water is absolutely necessary to make the flour that is

Mr. RAINEY (interposing). To enable the baker to make as much money as he wants to out of it?

Mr. LIND. Will you let him answer that, please?
Mr. RAINEY. Yes. I thougbt he had.

Mr. Burns. Adding water is absolutely necessary to develop the flour into bread, and I make bold to say that no man or woman ever yet made bread by putting as much water in it as he or she ought to do to produce the best results.

Mr. RAINEY. So that for that reason you need the flour that absorbs the most water?

Mr. Burxs. No; because it makes the most bread and best bread, and I will tell you why it makes the best bread.

You have a statement in here with reference to soft winter wheat containing 8.8 per cent of gluten, and you also have reference to a flour which contains 11 per cent gluten. There is 20 per cent more gluten in the one than in the other. The flour containing 11 per cent gluten will absorb more water than the flour containing 8.8 per cent gluten, but it won't absorb water in the same ratio as the gluten or protein content increases.

Mr. Rainey. You say water improves the gluten content of flour?

Mr. Burns. No; I did not say that. I said there was more gluten in the one flour than in the other, and the flour which has the larger per cent of gluten will absorb the most water.

Mr. RAINEY. That is the flour you want?
Mr. Burns. You bet that is the flour I want.
Mr. RAINEY. Do you know about-

Mr. Lind (interposing). Let the witness kindly answer the balance of the question.

Mr. RAINEY. Go ahead. I thought he was through.

Mr. Burns. The reason for that is this: If you take, for instance, two flours that can commonly be found on the market-possibly not this year, because all flour is a little low in gluten this year, but in ordinary years we can find flours running 9 per cent in gluten and flours running 12 per cent in gluten. In other words, the 12 per cent flour has 33 per cent more gluten than the 9 per cent. The average absorption in the commercial bakery to-day is about 56 per cent of 57 per cent. In other words, 100 pounds of flour will take up 56 or 57 pounds of water.

Mr. FORDNEY. Please state that again, the amount of flour and water.

Mr. Burns. When they speak of absorption they speak of the percentage of water to the total weight of flour which the flour will absorb. In other words, 57 per cent absorption means that 100 pounds of flour will absorb 57 pounds of water, making the total flour and water amount to 157 pounds.

Mr. RAINEY. That is worse than Dr. Wiley said. He added 40

per cent.

Mr. Burns. Oh, no; Mr. Chairman. Dr. Wiley said in the baked bread 10 per cent.

Mr. Rainey. In the completed product.

Mr. Burns. Yes; but 57 pounds is not as high a percentage as that; 100 pounds of flour with 12 per cent of gluten will take up 60 per cent of water.

Mr. RAINEY. And turn out still more loaves?

Mr. BURXS. And turn out still more loaves of hetter liread, because it will have a larger percentage of gluten than is contained in the leaves baked out of the 9 per cent flour.

Mr. RAINEY. Where do you buy your flour?

Mr. Burns. Oh, I buy a part of it in Kansas, a part of it in Minnesota, and a part of it in western Nebraska.

Mr. Rainey. Do you buy any from the Star & Crescent Milling Co., of Chicago, Ill.

Mr. Burns. I do not. The freight rate is against it.

Mr. RAINEY. They advertise in the trade papers that their No. 1 wheat flour, which they call Golden Horn flour, has a great waterabsorption power. That ought to be a good tlour for the commercial baker's business, oughtn't it?

Mr. Burns. If the advertisement is true: yes, sir.

Mr. RAINEY. Do you buy any flour from the L. G. Campbell Milling Co., of Owatonna. Minn.!

Mr. Burns. I never have; no, sir.

Mr. Rainey. They advertise in your millers' trade papers that their Golden Palace flour has “the strength to absorb enough water to insure the baker the greatest number of loales to the barrel." That ought to be a good flour?

Mr. Burns. If the advertisement is true, it ought to be, not only for the commercial baker, but for the family baker as well.

Mr. RAINEY. Do you buy any flour from the Eagle Roller Mill ('0., of New Ulm, Minn.?

Mr. BURNS. No, sir; I never have.

Mr. RAINEY. You ought to, because they advertise their " Gold Coin” flour as being a flour which "absorbs large quantities of water." Do you buy from the Akin-Erskine Milling Co., of Evansville. Ind.?

Mr. Burns. Vo; the freight rate is against us over there.

Mr. RAINEY. That would be an ideal flour for your use in a commercial bakery, because they advertise here that it is a top patent and it is “a thirsty bread fiour for bakers' use. Do you buy any from the Wall-Rogalsky Milling Co.?

Mr. BURNS. I do not.

Mr. Rainey. I do not know where they are located. They come from Kansas-from McPherson, Kans. They advertise their * Utility” flour, which produces many loaves-fine, big loaves-and will stand rough handling."

Mr. BURNS. That ought to be good.
Mr. RAINEY. A good flour for the bakers?

Mr. Burns. It ought to be a good flour, if that advertisement is true.

Mr. Rainey. Do you buy from the Acme-Evans Co., of Indianapolis, Ind.?

Mr. Burns. No, sir. Mr. Rainey. You are missing a lot by not reading these flour advertisements. They advertise that their brand of flour that they call “ Vitality" is made especially for the bread baker, and that it has" a high absorption."

Mr. Lind. I should say that

Mr. RAINEY (interposing). Do you buy from the Northwestern Milling Co., who produce the Pride of Minnesota flour, of Little Falls, Minn. ?

Mr. LIND. I can say
Mr. Burns (interposing). I have used a little of that flour.

Mr. Lind. I can say we will save a good deal of time by making an admission for the millers of flour by stating

Mr. RAINEY. Wait until I get the rest of them in, then you can make your admission.

This flour they advertise in your bakers' papers, which they call the Pride of Minnesota, they say gives the largest loaf of bread."

Mr. Burns. That is specially desirable.

Mr. RAINEY. Now, do you buy any from the Globe Flour Mills Co., at Perham, Minn. ?

Mr. Burns. I don't think I ever did.

Mr. RAINEY. Well, you ought to, because they advertise in your trade journals that it “makes more bread and better bread " than any other.

Do you buy from the La Grange Mills, at Red Wing, Minn.?
Mr. BURNS. I never have done so.

Mr. RAINEY. They have a Chieftain flour which they say beats them all in absorbing water and passing it on to the consumer.

Mr. Sloan. Would it be proper for the Kansas and Nebraska Representatives to object to the advertising of these northern wheats? [Laughter.]

Mr. RAINEY. I don't know whether they are getting any benefit out of it or not.

Are you familiar with the Red Wing Milling Co. flour called the Bixota, at Red Wing, Minn.?

Mr. Burns. I know of them, but I don't think I ever have bought any of their flour.

Mr. RAINEY. You ought to. It would suit you. They get out a flour that they call the Bixota, and they say that is guaranted to be a big bread producer.

The National Milling Co., of Toledo, Ohio. Are you familiar with that company?

Mr. Burns. No, sir; I am not.
Mr. RAINEY. They say
Mr. Burns. They are out of my territory.

Mr. RAINEY. They say in their advertisement in your trade paper that they make a flour they call the Osota, “our fancy spring wheat patent does it-delivers more bread per dollar.”

— Mr. FORDNEY. That is a southern Michigan wheat.

Mr. Rainey. I thought there was no Michigan wheat that would do that.

Mr. BURNS. The mill is located there, but they buy wheat grown out in the wheat country.

Mr. Rainey. I have a lot more of them, but that is enough. Gov. Lind, did you want to make some admissions in the record ?

Mr. LANNEN. Might I ask, Mr. Chairman, some questions right now?

Mr. RAINEY. I think the governor wants to plead guilty to something. [Laughter.] ]

Mr. BURNS. What is your objection to those advertisements ?

Mr. RAINEY. My objection to those advertisements is this: I think commercial bakers ought to be compelled to account for the value they are giving to their consumers. These flours are advertised in the trade papers that reach commercial bakers, and indicate that commercial bakers want to get the flour that will absorb the most water. These advertisements, as has already been shown, are advertisements that do not go to the housewife or to the small baker; they go to the commercial baker, who wants to get the most loaves that he can from a barrel of flour, and he can only get the most loaves by getting the flour that will turn over into finished product to the consumer the largest amount of water. Now, the commercial bakers come here and try to impress us that they do not want flour adulterated, yet these advertisements, and other advertisements that I have not read, show that they buy the flour which can be best adulterated with the cheapest product in the world, to wit, water, and hand it out to the consumer.

Mr. Burns. If the chairman had closely followed the statement which I made, to wit, that the flour absorbing the most water produces the largest food value in the loaf

Mr. GREEN (interposing). That was not quite what you said before. You said it had the larger per cent of protein. I could easily see how that would be true; but when you get so many more loaves to the barrel, I do not see how the consumer, even under your theory, gets a larger amount of protein or any other kind of food for his money. It won't figure out that way.

Mr. Burns. It will figure out that way, if you go into it closely.

Suppose we have a flour which will absorb 60 per cent of water. That means 100 pounds of flour will take up 60 pounds of water, or a total dough batch of 160 pounds. Now, you have 3 pounds more of water in there than you had in the flour that would absorb 57 pounds of water. In the one dough batch you have 160 pounds, in the other dough batch you have 157 pounds, but in the 160 pounds made from the strong wheat flour you have 335 per cent more protein than you have in the 157 pounds of the other flour.

Mr. GREEN. How many more loaves would you get out of that?

Mr. Burns. We would get about three or four more loaves out of 100 pounds of flour.

Mr. Rainey. Don't you think water displaces some of the food value?

Mr. Burns. It does; yes sir; but it is absolutely necessary to the development of these food values.

Mr. Rainey. In the interest of fair branding and fair marking, would you be willing, as a baker, when you send out your product, to

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