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pounds of flour will absorb 57 pounds of water, making the total flour and water amount to 157 pounds.

Mr. RAINEY. That is worse than Dr. Wiley said. He added 40 per cent.

Mr. BURNS. Oh, no; Mr. Chairman. Dr. Wiley said in the baked bread 40 per cent.

Mr. RAINEY. In the completed product.

Mr. BURNS. Yes; but 57 pounds is not as high a percentage as that; 100 pounds of flour with 12 per cent of gluten will take up 60 per cent of water.

Mr. RAINEY. And turn out still more loaves?

Mr. BURNS. And turn out still more loaves of better bread, because it will have a larger percentage of gluten than is contained in the leaves baked out of the 9 per cent flour.

Mr. RAINEY. Where do you buy your flour?

Mr. BURNS. Oh, I buy a part of it in Kansas, a part of it in Minnesota, and a part of it in western Nebraska.

Mr. RAINEY. Do you buy any from the Star & Crescent Milling Co., of Chicago, Ill.

Mr. BURNS. I do not. The freight rate is against it.

Mr. RAINEY. They advertise in the trade papers that their No. 1 wheat flour, which they call Golden Horn flour, has a great waterabsorption power. That ought to be a good flour for the commercial baker's business, oughtn't it?

Mr. BURNS. If the advertisement is true: yes, sir.

Mr. RAINEY. Do you buy any flour from the L. G. Campbell Milling Co., of Owatonna, Minn.?

Mr. BURNS. I never have; no, sir.

Mr. RAINEY. They advertise in your millers' trade papers that their Golden Palace flour has "the strength to absorb enough water to insure the baker the greatest number of loaves to the barrel." That ought to be a good flour?

Mr. BURNS. If the advertisement is true, it ought to be, not only for the commercial baker, but for the family baker as well.

Mr. RAINEY. Do you buy any flour from the Eagle Roller Mill Co., of New Ulm, Minn.?

Mr. BURNS. No, sir; I never have.

Mr. RAINEY. You ought to, because they advertise their "Gold Coin" flour as being a flour which "absorbs large quantities of water." Do you buy from the Akin-Erskine Milling Co., of Evansville, Ind.?

Mr. BURNS. No: the freight rate is against us over there.

Mr. RAINEY. That would be an ideal flour for your use in a commercial bakery, because they advertise here that it is a top patent and it is "a thirsty bread flour for bakers' use." Do you buy any from the Wall-Rogalsky Milling Co.?

Mr. BURNS. I do not.

Mr. RAINEY. I do not know where they are located. They come from Kansas-from McPherson, Kans. They advertise their Utility" flour, which produces many loaves-fine, big loaves-and will stand rough handling."

Mr. BURNS. That ought to be good.

Mr. RAINEY. A good flour for the bakers?

Mr. BURNS. It ought to be a good flour, if that advertisement is true.

Mr. RAINEY. Do you buy from the Acme-Evans Co., of Indianapolis, Ind.?

Mr. BURNS. No, sir.

Mr. RAINEY. You are missing a lot by not reading these flour advertisements. They advertise that their brand of flour that they call "Vitality" is made especially for the bread baker, and that it has "a high absorption."

Mr. LIND. I should say that

Mr. RAINEY (interposing). Do you buy from the Northwestern Milling Co., who produce the Pride of Minnesota flour, of Little Falls, Minn.?

Mr. LIND. I can say

Mr. BURNS (interposing). I have used a little of that flour.

Mr. LIND. I can say we will save a good deal of time by making an admission for the millers of flour by stating

Mr. RAINEY. Wait until I get the rest of them in, then you can make your admission.

This flour they advertise in your bakers' papers, which they call the Pride of Minnesota, they say gives "the largest loaf of bread.” Mr. BURNS. That is specially desirable.

Mr. RAINEY. Now, do you buy any from the Globe Flour Mills Co., at Perham, Minn.?

Mr. BURNS. I don't think I ever did.

Mr. RAINEY. Well, you ought to, because they advertise in your trade journals that it "makes more bread and better bread" than any other.

Do you buy from the La Grange Mills, at Red Wing, Minn.?
Mr. BURNS. I never have done so.

Mr. RAINEY. They have a Chieftain flour which they say beats them all in absorbing water and passing it on to the consumer.

Mr. SLOAN. Would it be proper for the Kansas and Nebraska Representatives to object to the advertising of these northern wheats? [Laughter.]

Mr. RAINEY. I don't know whether they are getting any benefit out of it or not.

Are you familiar with the Red Wing Milling Co. flour called the Bixota, at Red Wing, Minn.?

Mr. BURNS. I know of them, but I don't think I ever have bought any of their flour.

Mr. RAINEY. You ought to.

It would suit you. They get out a flour that they call the Bixota, and they say that is guaranted to be a big bread producer.

The National Milling Co., of Toledo, Ohio. Are you familiar with that company?

Mr. BURNS. No, sir; I am not.

Mr. RAINEY. They say

Mr. BURNS. They are out of my territory.

Mr. RAINEY. They say in their advertisement in your trade paper that they make a flour they call the Osota, "our fancy spring wheat patent does it delivers more bread per dollar."

Mr. FORDNEY. That is a southern Michigan wheat.

Mr. RAINEY. I thought there was no Michigan wheat that would do that.

Mr. BURNS. The mill is located there, but they buy wheat grown out in the wheat country.

Mr. RAINEY. I have a lot more of them, but that is enough.

Gov. Lind, did you want to make some admissions in the record? Mr. LANNEN. Might I ask, Mr. Chairman, some questions right now?

Mr. RAINEY. I think the governor wants to plead guilty to something. [Laughter.]

Mr. BURNS. What is your objection to those advertisements?

Mr. RAINEY. My objection to those advertisements is this: I think commercial bakers ought to be compelled to account for the value they are giving to their consumers. These flours are advertised in the trade papers that reach commercial bakers, and indicate that commercial bakers want to get the flour that will absorb the most water. These advertisements, as has already been shown, are advertisements that do not go to the housewife or to the small baker; they go to the commercial baker, who wants to get the most loaves that he can from a barrel of flour, and he can only get the most loaves by getting the flour that will turn over into finished product to the consumer the largest amount of water. Now, the commercial bakers come here and try to impress us that they do not want flour adulterated, yet these advertisements, and other advertisements that I have not read, show that they buy the flour which can be best adulterated with the cheapest product in the world, to wit, water, and hand it out to the con

sumer.

Mr. BURNS. If the chairman had closely followed the statement which I made, to wit, that the flour absorbing the most water produces the largest food value in the loaf

Mr. GREEN (interposing). That was not quite what you said before. You said it had the larger per cent of protein. I could easily see how that would be true; but when you get so many more loaves to the barrel, I do not see how the consumer, even under your theory, gets a larger amount of protein or any other kind of food for his money. It won't figure out that way.

Mr. BURNS. It will figure out that way, if you go into it closely. Suppose we have a flour which will absorb 60 per cent of water. That means 100 pounds of flour will take up 60 pounds of water, or a total dough batch of 160 pounds. Now, you have 3 pounds more of water in there than you had in the flour that would absorb 57 pounds of water. In the one dough batch you have 160 pounds, in the other dough batch you have 157 pounds, but in the 160 pounds made from the strong wheat flour you have 33 per cent more protein. than you have in the 157 pounds of the other flour.

Mr. GREEN. How many more loaves would you get out of that? Mr. BURNS. We would get about three or four more loaves out of 100 pounds of flour.

Mr. RAINEY. Don't you think water displaces some of the food value?

Mr. BURNS. It does; yes sir; but it is absolutely necessary to the development of these food values.

Mr. RAINEY. In the interest of fair branding and fair marking, would you be willing, as a baker, when you send out your product, to

say, "This bread is made from flour that absorbs large amounts of water, and for your 5 cents you are getting so much water in this in addition to your food value"?

Mr. BURNS. No: I would not, because that would not be in the interest of fairness, because it would not be the truth. You understand that in the process of fermentation and in the process of baking there is a large amount of water lost, and there is very little, if any, more water retained in the finished loaf-a very slight increased percentage of water in the finished loaf. That water is necessary to the development of the food elements in the flour before it is baked. Mr. RAINEY. I understood yesterday that, although a large amount of the water that you put into it does not go to the consumer, he gets a good deal of it."

Mr. BURNS. Granting that he does get it, he gets more protein with it for the 5 cents that he pays, which is the basis of food value. Mr. FORDNEY. Do you know of any flour that is manufactured that goes solely to the baker and to nobody else?

Mr. BURNS. I do not know; no, sir.

Mr. FORDNEY. There is no flour made by any miller that sells solely to a baker; he sells to the general trade, does he not?

Mr. BURNS. Not that I ever heard of.

Mr. FORDNEY. I have never heard of any.

Mr. RAINEY. This kind of flour that millers sell to bakers, it is indicated in these advertisements.

Mr. BURNS. Those advertisements, as the chairman said, are in the bakers trade journal, and they would not put an advertisement in a bakers' trade journal which would interest a housewife.

Mr. FORDNEY. Do you know of a mill making a kind of flour solely for the baker and not for the housewife?

Mr. BURNS. Not that I know of.

Mr. HELVERING. Is it not a fact, too, that those advertisements that appear in the papers are fem competitive millers all over the country? Mr. BURNS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HELVERING. Is it a fact or not that you can secure different prices from those millers showing that there is competition?

Mr. BURNS. Well, I have already succeeded in doing it.

Mr. HELVERING. Another question relative to the water. What flours are there that you make bread out of without the use of water? Mr. BURNS. No known flour.

Mr. HELVERING. Then water is an absolute necessity in the baking of bread?

Mr. BURNS. Yes, sir; just as necessary as the flour itself.
Mr. HELVERING. And every woman in the home knows that?
Mr. BURNS. Absolutely.

Mr. GREEN. I may be mistaken, but I am under the impression that a miller testified that he was engaged in making flour from a soft winter wheat—a soft winter wheat that had only about 8 per cent of gluten-and that he made a very popular flour that sold very well at even a little higher price. Am I correct about that. Mr. Chairman? I am not sure, but he said something about it being sold in the South. I have forgotten, however, where he said it was sold. He claimed that he was making the best kind of flour. Can you explain that? Would that be a flour used by bakers?

Mr. BURNS. It might be, for some purposes. We use flour in our bakery in which we seek to find a flour with the lowest percentage of gluten, for the reason that we make pastry doughs out of it that must, to be acceptable to the public, be a short and crisp and snappy and brittle product, as free from the characteristics of gluten, which is a necessary property for bread, as it is possible to get it: such flour, for instance, as is used for cracker baking.

Mr. GREEN. What kind of flour do bakers generally use? Do they use a high grade patent flour?

Mr. BURNS. Well, many of them do.

Mr. GREEN. I was under the impression that they did not. I may be wrong about that.

Mr. BURNS. You are decidedly wrong about that, if you will permit me, and a very prevalent opinion of that sort exists. The fact of the matter is that the average commercial baker of the United States uses a better flour that the average housewife, a flour containing a higher food value, a higher percentage of gluten, more protein, and out of that flour he makes better bread than it is possible for any housewife to make.

Mr. GREEN. Is there some kind of flour known as bakers' patent, or something of that kind?

Mr. BURNS. Nearly every mill that mills flour has a number of general designations for the flours which it mills. They call them clears, first clears, second clears, low grades, standard patent, bakers' patent, short patent, and fancy patent.

Mr. GREEN. What is this bakers' patent?

Mr. BURNS. I could not define those, sir, because the baker's patent from one mill might not be a baker's patent from another mill. Mr. GREEN. I was under the impression that it was a low grade of flour. Can you say anything about that?

Mr. BURNS. No; it is not a low grade of flour. It is not as high a grade of flour, from the basis of the classification of flours in grades, as a fancy patent. In other words, it is nearer the whole flour from the grain. If Dr. Wiley were asked that question he would tell you that it is a higher valued flour than a short patent flour, because Dr. Wiley believes in retaining as much of the coarse elements of the grain as possible.

Mr. GREEN. Is it largely used by bakers-the kind commercially called baker's patent?

Mr. BURNS. I do not think it is as largely used to-day as it was a number of years ago.

Mr. FORDNEY. I want to call your attention to a letter. I mentioned it, or a part of it, once before. This was written before the act which now is sought to be repealed was enacted in 1898. It is a letter that was furnished to the Agricultural Department and presented to the Committee on Ways and Means at the time, when this existing law was before this committee for consideration, and I will ask you whether or not if this law was repealed we might not get right back into the same rut? That letter is dated and was sent by the York Manufacturing Co., of Greensboro, N. C., May 7, 1898, to the Marshall-Kennedy Milling Co., of Allegheny, Pa.:

GENTLEMEN: We invite your attention to our mineraline—

Mineraline is stone, marble, or reck, or something of the sort, hard, and nothing else, is it not? That is my understanding.

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