money by carrying no teams; and I think I know that if the East Boston ferries were made free, we should abolish the team travel entirely.

Q. You think, then, that if the East Boston ferries were made free, the team travel which now seeks your ferry would be transferred to that?

A. Yes, sir. They don't desire to go over Charlestown bridge.

Q. Do you know, sir, how the East Boston ferry is situated in relation to Essex county as to facilities for team travel?

A. I think that all the teams which come from Lynn and elsewhere in that vicinity (and they have generally a good many, coming over our ferry) would come over the East Boston ferries, in case the tolls on them are removed. They have preferred coming over our ferry, although the distance is much larger, to coming over the East Boston ferry, because our boats have not been so crowded as the East Boston boats have been ; they have not had to wait so long, nights or mornings; and yet they have had, sometimes, to wait an hour. I would touch upon another class of passengers that the East Boston boats would have to take over, which I consider very important in this connection: The Lynn and Boston railroad, and all the horse railroads running in that direction, I should suppose, would run their passengers right up to East Boston, if they could be carried over the ferries free; and in that way, through the Lynn and Boston, the Chelsea and all the horse railroads in that direction, the towns below Boston on the east would be benefited.

The legislature has this season granted a charter for a railroad to run from Malden to Chelsea, and to the Chelsea ferry. Well, it may be that they may find it more convenient to run to East Boston, if they can take their passengers over free. I don't know how that would be; but certainly the Lynn road and the Chelsea road would carry their passengers over to East Boston, if they could get them over the ferries free, particularly

if they build this new depot at Long wharf; and I have no doubt they will get the depot. They get everything they ask for.

Q. Suppose they get everything they ask for, and free the ferries, and get this increased team travel that you predict for them; how much will that, in your judgment, increase the expense to the city, of running the East Boston ferries?

A. I believe that the East Boston ferries, at the end of five years, if they are free, will cost $700,000.00 or $800,00.00 a year, taking into consideration the interest money on the capital, and the interest of the money they will spend in going to Long wharf; because they will be sure to go there; for it will be very important, if they get all these boats, to have this new depot; and after you have spent a few millions of dollars, one million more will be but very little to be added. The running of a ferry is an exceedingly expensive business in any case. The drops, tanks, and everything connected with the boats have to be renewed often; and I must say, I am very sorry that I have been so unfortunate as to be connected with a ferry at all. We pay no dividends on our capital, and the whole stock of the Winnisimmet ferry can be bought for less than $100,000.00. It is a mere bagatelle. I own a little less than half of it, and I would be glad to give it away to anybody who would take it and agree to run the ferry, and give satisfaction. I should be glad to get rid of it, and save the annoyance.

Q. I would like to have you state how the expense of transporting teams compares with other expenses.

A. The expense of carrying teams is about this: for every four-horse team that crosses our ferry we charge thirty or forty cents; and I think it costs us $5 for every team we take across. It injures the boats and drops in such a way that it is almost impossible to carry them; and yet we have to. We have passed a vote that we would not take any team weighing over 7,000 pounds; but the teamsters come down there and swear

their teams don't weigh any more than that, and we have to take them, at the risk of breaking the drops and injuring the boats. If we got full prices for our team travel, so as to make it pay, we should have to charge three times as much as we do

now.

The Chelsea ferry is not so badly off, however, in this respect as the East Boston ferry; for this reason: While we get $100,000 gross receipts, $80,000 for foot passengers, and $20,000 for teams, the East Boston ferry gets about $160,000, and has to take the Metropolitan R. R. cars; their receipts are about equally divided between foot passengers and teams. We get more from foot passengers than the East Boston ferry, and it is from the foot passengers that we get the profit.

Q. How about the expenses of renewing these boats? How long are they likely to last?

A. Well, a ferry-boat needs building over. We laid out $12,000 or $15,000 last fall, and we have got to lay out considerable on each of the boats soon. New boilers have to be put in every few years; the machinery has to be altered, and the expense of running a ferry and keeping up the boats is very heavy. We have never, any of us, arrived at a safe estimate of what it will cost to run the ferries as they ought to be run. We admit that we do not furnish the accommodations that the people of Chelsea ought to have. We plead our inability, with the small income we get, to give them such accommodation as they desire. Therefore, we want to get rid of the team travel entirely, and then we can accommodate the foot passengers.

Cross-examination.

Q. (By Mr. SWEETSER.) I understand you that you own no real estate in East Boston?

A. I do not; I am happy to say it.

Q. I understand you to say that the freeing of the ferries

would increase the value of the real estate in East Boston 25 per cent?

A. No; I said it would increase my property in Chelsea 25 per cent. I think it would increase my real estate in Chelsea more than it would the real estate in East Boston, for this reason: East Boston has a great deal to gain by free ferries; but, then, she has a little to lose.

Q. I want to know what per cent, of increase you place upon East Boston?

A. I can't say.

Q. You have some judgment about it, haven't you?

A. I have not. If you will let me tell the reason why I cannot make a judgment about East Boston, I will.

Q. I would rather you would answer my question?

A. Then I shall decline to answer it, because I cannot,

Q. You simply say it would increase it, in your judgment? A. I should think it would.

Q. How soon after the ferries were made free?

A. Well, that would depend upon circumstances. If they should put on accommodations enough, ten or fifteen boats, to give all the team travel that would come there as much accommodation as they have now, it would increase it immediately; but if they should have insufficient accommodations, so that this out-of-town travel would have to wait an hour or two, then the East Boston people would be inconvenienced, and they would rather pay the tolls, and have the boats go on as they do now, than be crowded by the out-of-town teams, I should suppose.

Q. Suppose the ferries should be made free, and sufficient facilities afforded to accommodate the travel; when do you think the increase in the value of real estate would take place?

A. I don't think they could get such accommodation at present.

Q. Suppose they did?

A. I should say that if they could have new boats, and a

sufficient number of boats to accommodate the travel as well as it is accommodated now, it would increase immediately. Q. Why?

A. I should say it would increase the value of the property there, the same as it would increase the value of property in Roxbury if the horse-cars should be run free.

Q. Well, why again?

A. Because it would take the passengers to Roxbury free of expense. That would give people a chance to live there without paying fifty or seventy-five dollars a year to go in the horse-cars. It would be the same in East Boston.

Q. You mean, in other words, that it would increase the population?

A. I should think it would. Wherever they could travel free, the population would be increased, whether by horse-cars, steam-cars, or steamboats.

Q. It would have, in a measure, the same effect as it would if you had a free bridge across?

A. I don't think it would. I think a free bridge would be a great advantage, because that would give an impulse, and there would be no detriment in having the out-of-town travel pass over a free bridge, because the bridge could take all the travel.

Q. I said, "in a measure."

A. No, I should not think it would in a measure. I should not think the two could be compared, a bridge with a ferry. Q. A bridge would be subjected to all the interruptions of draws, would it not?

A. I understand; that is trifling.

Q. Very trifling?

A. Very, sir.

Q. Well, supposing it should take eight hours a day, on the average.