Mr. PUTNAM. You are referring to a supposed bridge to East Boston; Mr. Matthews is thinking of actual bridges.

Mr. SWEETSER. Well, I don't know. My question was distinct. I wanted to get at what was in your mind, and I asked whether free ferries would not have, in a measure, the same effect as building a bridge, supposing that to be possible? A. I should say, so far as I understand the case, that a bridge would be quite a different thing from a ferry.

Q. Now, sir, why do you say that freeing the ferries would increase the value of your property at Chelsea more than it would the value of real estate at East Boston?

A. That I can explain, I think, so that you will understand it, in this way: In Chelsea we are not dependent on the ferry alone; we can go round by Charlestown bridge. It is a little farther, it is true; but we have always that resort, if the ferry is crowded. Morning and night, when we know it will be crowded, we can go that way, and therefore we have two strings to our bow; whereas, the East Boston people have no other outlet but to come by the ferry; and if all this team travel from the neighboring towns is crowded in there, I don't see how they can put on accommodations so but that they must, morning and night, have to wait an hour or an hour and a half. I don't know how that may be, but I think they will. Therefore, I think there is a great detriment to East Boston, as well as an advantage, from freeing the ferries.

Q. I understand you, then, that the value of real estate in Chelsea would increase more than at East Boston, substantially, because the travel from the lower towns would be crowded upon the ferry-boats at East Boston?

A. Yes, sir. I said my property would be increased 25 per cent; not the whole town of Chelsea. I said my real

estate.

Q. I speak of real estate generally, in both places.

A. I speak of my own real estate, and my reason for speak

ing of that is, that my real estate is principally in low lands between Broadway and East Boston, on deep water, where it is wanted for manufacturing purposes. It is now worth about three cents a foot. An advance of 25 per cent would only bring it up to four cents a foot to-day. Therefore, I think it is safe to say it would be worth 25 per cent more.

Q. Then your land would be increased more than the land generally in Chelsea?

A. I think all the land east of Broadway would be increased more than that west of Broadway, the population of which would naturally take the bridge.

Q. Do I understand you to say now, that you think the real estate at Chelsea would be increased by freeing the ferries more than the real estate in East Boston ?

A. I do; yes, sir.

Q. Do I understand you as giving, as one of the main reasons for that, that you think it would be increased because the out-of-town teams would block the way for an hour or an hour and a half?

A. Yes, sir. I think the reason why it would increase the value of Chelsea property is, that they could go over the ferry eight or nine hours in a day, and at morning and night, when the ferries would be most crowded they could go around over the bridge. That is the reason why Chelsea would be benefited a little more than East Boston.

Q. Is it? I want to know. You say you think the East Boston Ferry, if it was free, would be crowded by the travel from below?

A. Yes, sir, I do; that is the reason of the difference.

Q. So that you suppose the teams from below and from Chelsea, would run the risk of a delay of an hour and a half, in order to go over East Boston ferry, when they had access to Boston through Charlestown and over Chelsea ferry?

A. We should abolish our team travel on Chelsea ferry.

Q. They would still have the bridge, and you think they would run that risk, and crowd out the East Boston travel?

A. Teamsters are very apt to save their horses all they can, and get on to a ferry. I should think they would crowd up there.

Q. Perhaps you know some peculiarity about the people living down in Essex County which would make them undergo that disaccommodation?

A. Well, people are very peculiar. It is amazing to see how far they will go to save a ninepence, or to save a mile of travel.

Q. It don't save ninepence, because they can go over Chelsea bridge free.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And they lose an hour and a half. That isn't worth ninepence.

A. You understand they don't always lose that hour and a half. I should think very likely it would take, sometimes, an hour or an hour and a half to get all the teams over.

Q. Now, sir, how much do you think it would increase the value of land in Chelsea generally, — leaving out your own?

A. I did not state that it would increase the value of the real estate. You asked me about land. There is a difference between increasing the value of land and increasing the value of real estate.

Q. Unoccupied land, then?

A. I should think that bordering on East Boston, like mine, would increase about 25 per cent; then all the way from 5 per cent to 25 per cent. It would depend upon location.

Q. Do you think it would increase the price of unoccupied land generally at East Boston less than it would increase the price of unoccupied land generally at Chelsea?

A. I think it would, for the reason I gave. Having only one outlet, the people of East Boston are forced to go to the ferry.

Q. You will not give any opinion, have not formed any, upon the probable increase in value of the East Boston land by freeing the ferries?

A. No, sir.

Q. What is your reason for supposing that there will be an increase in the value of the Chelsea land? Leave out your own now, if you please.

A. Well, I will give it to you. The vacant land in Chelsea is principally flats, worth from one cent to ten or fifteen cents a foot. It is wanted for manufacturing purposes. We have now got water in Chelsea, which we have not had until recently. East Boston has had an advantage over Chelsea in that respect, and it is a very considerable one. Now that we have water in Chelsea, I think that land is as good for manufacturing purposes as the land in East Boston, which is much higher. Consequently the impulse which will be given to it by another free avenue, every additional avenue increases the value of property, it is very reasonable to suppose, will increase its value. I can give no better reason than that.

Q. Not to be too long about this, I hope, you have got water; you have got one free avenue; and if the ferries are freed, you will have only one more free avenue; you are farther off than East Boston; you have got land suitable for manufacturing purposes; there is enough of that, I suppose, at East Boston. Why would not a free avenue to East Boston, this same free avenue to East Boston, which is nearer to the city proper than Chelsea, increase the value of land there, just as much, if not more, than it will beyond?

A. I will state, in the first place, that land in East Boston is two or three times as dear as it is in Chelsea. Land that you can buy in Chelsea for five cents a foot, they want 15 and 20 for in East Boston. That is one reason why land will advance more in Chelsea than it will in East Boston.

Another reason why I think that part of Chelsea will be in

creased in value, is because it has a direct road.over to East Boston, and they can take the ferries nine or ten hours in the day, where they can go free; and at other times, when they are liable to be crowded, gentlemen who keep their light pleasure carriages can drive over the bridge; they would have two strings to their bow, while East Boston would have only one. It would not surprise me if night and morning teams should go over Chelsea bridge in order to get into Boston. I think they will. They will not come so much from Essex County. People coming over the eastern avenue which borders on East Boston, will be half a mile nearer the East Boston ferries than those who come by the turnpike; consequently, they have a better chance to get there.

Q. You have stated that, in your opinion, the expense of these ferrries, if freed, would be, at the end of five years, $800,000?

A. I should think so, if such accommodations are furnished as East Boston will require and demand. That is, if they build their new depot on Long wharf.

Q. Well, I want to know why you put it at the end of five years?

A. Because I think that the expense of the ferries, by making them free now, will just about double in the course of a year or two, and then they will go on increasing all the time.

Q. That is to say, if the cost is $200,000 now, at the end of a year, it will be $400,000?

A. You can't reckon the cost to be $200,000.

Q. Assuming it to be.

A. You may assume it; I don't choose to.

Q. I thought you would assume it, to oblige us.

A. No, sir, I don't want to do that; I have had too much experience with ferries. A boy once asked his father, "Suppose you call a calf's tail a leg, how many legs will the calf have?" "Five, you dunce." No, father, he won't; calling the tail a