leg, don't make it so." I don't want to assume a thing that I know isn't so. You can assume it.

Q. Well, will you assume it to be $500,000? It will answer my purpose just as well.

A. Well, suppose you assume the expense, taking the interest money on the debts and all, at $300,000, then I will go on, starting from that point.

Q. Then I understand you to assume that the expense is $300,000. I want to know if you assume that as conscientiously as you refused to assume the sum I put?

A. I should rather say, that I think my sum is a good deal nearer than yours. I would not undertake to run the East Boston ferries for five years for $300,000 a year.

Q. Will you assume some sum that your conscience will allow you to?

A. I think my conscience will allow me to say, that taking the interest money on the capital, the repairs on these boats and keeping them in good order, the boats requiring new boilers, as they do every year,* and keeping the drops and slips in order, it will cost $300,000 the very next year. I guess the city will find, to their cost, that it will cost more than that.

Q. Suppose you assume the cost last year?

A. Well, we have a way of making up the accounts of ferry boats, charging new boilers, 'new boats, etc., to construction account. It is something like the calf's leg: you can't get at it.

Q. But if you don't charge your new boats to "construction account" or "contingent expenses "?

A. I don't know. I should like to look into the matter. I think I am expert enough in that business, so that I can take the ferry accounts, if I can get my friend Mr. Brigham to post me up for a day or two, and come here prepared to tell you what I think it will cost.

* The reporter understood Mr. Matthews to make this statement, as printed. It will be seen, by reference to page 64, that he did not understand himself to have made it.

Mr. SWEETSER. I don't know as I am particular about it. WITNESS. I don't suppose you are.

Mr. PUTNAM. We should like to have you do it, Mr. Matthews.

Q. Is $300,000 large enough?

A. I should say it was.

Q. Then, from April, 1871, to April, 1872, you say the cost would be $300,000?

A. I should say so, with the ordinary repairs and depreciation which you would have to charge to the boats, and everything of that kind. There is a difference in the way of figuring the cost of such things. Edward Crane figures it in one way, and Chester W. Chapin figures it in another; and Mr. Chapin is generally correct.

Q. Then for the year ending April, 1873, you estimate that it would cost $600,000?

A. No, sir, I don't.

Q. Didn't you say it would double in a year?

A. I said it would double in five years. I don't think it will double in a year.

Q. You said it would double in a year or two?

A. Well, I should think it would double in two or three years, if they get fairly running, with your splendid new boats. It would not be doubled if you kept the old boats on; but they will soon sink; you can't run them much longer.

Q. Then it would be at the end of three or four years $600,000?

A. I should say in three or four years, the expenses would be double what they are now, with free ferries.

Q. How many years do you say now?

A. Three or four years.

Q. Why?

A. I think you will get double the team travel on them; that the railroads will concentrate their freight in larger quantities than they do now.

Q, Where?

A. At East Boston. These large corporations, the Boston & Albany R. R. and others, will sendtheir goods over there; more ships will come in, and of course the teaming business and the business at the wharves in East Boston, and so on, will probably be doubled, and it will go on doubling, and double the teams, of course, will require double the present accommodations. The foot passengers will make very little difference. You can carry just as many foot passengers as you will be likely to have over there; but I think the team travel will double in two years or three.

Q. Then in three or four years, I think you put it now, the business of East Boston will double?

A- No, sir, not the business of East Boston. I will thank you not to put words into my mouth. That don't necessarily follow. The business really will be doubled, coming up from Lynn, Saugus, and Chelsea, and all the team travel. I say the team travel will double from East Boston.

Q. You did not name that?

A. I did, certainly.

Q. Didn't you name the wharves?

A. I said the shipping interest might be doubled. That would not be doubling the business of East Boston. There may be double the goods landed there, but that would not better East Boston business.

Q. The East Boston business was my question?

A. I said the team travel would double in two or three years

two years.

Q. You said, didn't you, that the increase of freight from the northern railroads, and from the wharf business, would double in four or five years?

A. Including the out-of-town travel, it would double, passing over the East Boston ferry.

Q. What would be the probable increase of business in East Boston?

A. I should think the wharf business, and the railroad business, by having free ferries would increase very rapidly; but it is not really the business of East Boston. You might call it the business of East Boston if the Eastern Railroad brings up five hundred tons of freight, and it is carted over to the city of Boston; but it is not any increase of the business of East Boston. It is not real business. Therefore, I should hardly say that the busines of East Boston would increase much.

Q. I understand you to say that the real estate of East Boston would increase considerably with free ferries, but you cannot say how much?

A. No, sir.

Q. How much do you think real estate would increase in five years ?

A. That depends upon the accommodation that is given by the ferries.

Q. Suppose we have a good and convenient ferry?

A. And run boats enough to carry all the teams as they come down to the ferry, night and morning, without waiting? Q. With a good one.

A. We consider that we run as good as we can afford to; but we run a very poor one.

Q. You can't afford to run any, as I understand you. We won't compare it with yours. How much would free ferries increase the value of real estate in East Boston?

A. I shouldn't want to say how much; I don't go over there once in five years. You have people here who can give a great deal better judgment than I can. I said in a few years it might increase it from five to twenty-five per cent, possibly. Q. You thought it would induce population to go over there?

A. I should think it would induce a mechanical population

to go over there, and I should think the other people would all move out of town.

Q. A mechanical population is a pretty important one, isn't it?

A. I understand. I have a great regard for the mechanics of East Boston.

Q. How fast do you think that would increase?

A. I can't tell you. I shouldn't want to make an estimate. Q. You have based your increase of cost upon the hypothesis that there would be a considerable increase in population, haven't you?

A. No I have not. I think the increased cost of the ferries, and the increased business there, would come principally from the various heavy transportation companies, which don't bring any business to East Boston, except the few people employed at the depots.

Q. Do you think there would be any increase in the population of East Boston?

A. I should think the manufacturing interest would be likely to increase, and the other population would be likely to de

crease.

Q. Considerably?

A. I should say it would be increased. I don't think you ought to press me any further than that, because I can't say the percentage. There is no question but the population would increase.

Q. But not much?

A. I don't say whether less or more. I think that free ferries would be an injury to the wealthy gentlemen who live over in East Boston, except so far as they own real estate that would bring a manufacturing population around them. Therefore, a manufacturing population, while it has great advantages, has some disadvantages.

Q. You think the three gentlemen over there, who, our