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friend said in his opening, own a large amount of real estate over there, will be driven out of town?

A. I think my friend, Mr. Bowker, is rich enough to move out of East Boston, and I think he will very soon. They won't want to cross over in that crowded ferry; it will be dangerous. Q. I suppose it will not be an increase of population that will make a crowded ferry?

A. No, sir; it will be an increase of team travel. I think I have stated two or three times, that foot passengers are a very trifling consideration for a ferry company. We could carry four or five times as many passengers as we now do, without any additional cost, if properly divided during the day. It is team travel which requires extra boats.

Q. Are you for or against free ferries?

A. (Laughing.) I must laugh, because I don't know. I understood that some gentleman said here, the other evening, that freeing the East Boston ferries would injure Chelsea ferry. I said, "If that is the case, I will go up and contradict that, because it will not injure Chelsea ferry; it will benefit it.”

Q. If I understood you, the quicker it is ruined and sunk out of sight, the better for you.

A. No, sir. We can bring it up if we can get rid of the team travel, so that it will be a good ten per cent stock. I advise everybody to go into it, now that it is down.

Q. Which side are you on?

A. As a tax-payer in the city of Boston, paying, as I said, the fourth or fifth highest tax on the individual list, I think I am taxed on a million and a half, I am decidedly opposed to it. I think it would be one of the wickedest and most outrageous frauds ever practised upon any tax-payer by a city government or any other party I can't see the slightest justice, honor, or anything of that kind in it. As a non-resident of Chelsea, owning a large amount of real estate over there, I am in favor of it. Now do you understand the case?

Q. Now take the Mr. Matthews who owns a third of the stock of the Winnisimmet ferry; how does he look at it?

A. That is a private consideration, that don't bias me one single iota. I own a third part of the ten thousand shares of that company.

It is worth now nine dollars a share. I could give that away without its hurting me in the least. I run that ferry because the people want it. I have been identified with Chelsea. I have made a good deal of money there, and I feel disposed to run it for their accommodation. I don't make a dollar out of it; on the contrary, the ferry company owe me a hundred thousand dollars to-day. I run it for the purpose of accommodating the people of Chelsea, not to make money.

Q. How much land have you got in Boston that is not built upon?

A. I have got some four or five million feet on the Back Bay, that I bought of Mr. Sears and Mr. Francis within the last year, or year and a half, which is not built upon; and I have land in other localities that is not built upon.

Q. What other localities?

A. Upon Columbus avenue, Dartmouth street, Yarmouth street, and many of the streets at the South End. You can hardly go on to any street on the Back Bay, where you will not see land belonging to me, north or south of Berkeley street, and on Berkeley street, and all around Berkeley street.

Q. How would the opening of this vacant land in East Boston affect that?

A. Not the slightest. Our land up there is intended for first-class residences, that shall not be crowded out by mechanics, who want the small houses; and therefore we should be very glad to have free ferries, so as to take them away from our population. We want a good aristocratic population upon that territory. That is high-priced land. They sell land in East Boston for ten or fifteen cents a foot. This land is going to bring

two or three dollars a foot. I have sold this last week several lots of land, amounting to $150,000, at an average of two dollars a foot, for which I passed the deeds to-day.

Q. How does the owner of this vacant land over on the Back Bay, and all around, regard freeing the ferries?

A. I regard it just as much as I shall be taxed by the city of Boston on that land to pay for carrying the people over to East Boston free. A free ferry would not affect the value of the property there one iota.

My land is on Commonwealth and Columbus avenues, and on Boylston st., Berkeley st., Chandler st., Newbury st., and other streets in that neighborhood, and it is sold with the restriction that nothing but houses at least three stories high shall be built upon it. No person is allowed to build upon that land a livery stable, or a mechanic's shop, or a blacksmith's shop, or anything that shall be a nuisance to first-class dwelling houses; and none but first-class dwelling houses will be built upon that whole territory.

Q. But inasmuch as you desire to get rid of the mechanical population, and not be crowded out of that territory by them, and think they will go over to East Boston, I take it you will desire free ferries?

A. No, sir, I don't; because they can go to Roxbury and a great many other places. They don't desire to go up on that territory. A mechanic cannot go and buy a house on Commonwealth avenue.

Q. I am not talking about Commonwealth avenue.

A. We have not got any land that is not just as desirable

as that; it is all the same.

Q. It is not quite as valuable now?

A. It will be in a few years.

Q. It is a mere question of taxation, then, with you?

A. One is a question of taxation, and the other is a question like this: If they can make the East Boston ferries free,

they can make the horse railroads free, and then what is our property worth within the City of Boston? If they can tax us the interest on six or eight millions of dollars to carry the people to East Boston for nothing, for the benefit of a few residents and land speculators over there, I say property in the city of Boston is worth but very little.

Q. You don't think Boston proper would be benefited at all by it?

A. I don't think it would, not a bit.

Q. (By Mr. PUTNAM.) I want to ask you a single question. In your judgment, who will feel the benefit of freeing the ferries over in East Boston?

A. I should say that the large establishments over there, like the iron foundries, the East Boston Sugar Refinery, the Eastern Railroad, and the Boston and Albany R. R. These corporations would be benefited, and would crowd out the residents who keep their small one-horse teams, express wagons, etc., as they do over in Chelsea. I should think these large corporations would be benefited more than other classes.

Q. How about the large holders of vacant land?
A. I should think they would be benefited.

Q. How about the small householders and tenants?

A. Well, I don't know. I don't think it would benefit them so much, for this reason: if the ferries are freed, there will be a great crowd of population from the North End who will go over there to get the benefit of the sea breeze and take a sail for nothing. Therefore, there would be a great influx of population that it would be very desirable to keep out of the city.

Q. How about the relation of taxes and rents to the saving of toll, by having the ferries free, for the people who use it as a foot ferry?

A. I should think freeing the ferries would increase the rents of small houses, while it would decrease the rents of large

houses, that are worth $5,000 and upwards, from the very fact, that if you crowd East Boston with a manufacturing population, the wealthy gentlemen resident there will leave, who can afford to live in ten thousand dollar houses, and upwards.

Q. (By Mr. BROOKS.) Did I understand you to say that new boilers would be used for these boats every year?

A. No, sir, I did not make that remark.

Q. How would it affect your foot travel on Chelsea ferry, if the East Boston ferries were made free?

A. It would not affect the foot travel at all. I think we should gain thirty or forty thousand dollars a year, because we should get rid of the team travel. As I said, the two railroads receive about $130,000. If we can run our boats every 71 minutes, exclusively for foot passengers, we could get half of what the railroads take now, and therefore we should gain thirty or forty thousand dollars a year.

and

Q. If I did not misunderstand the counsel who opened the case this evening [Mr. PUTNAM], he said we were confined to one string. If I understood the counsel for the petitioners who opened last Friday night [Mr. TRAIN], one of the arguments he brought forward for not freeing the ferries was, that we had an avenue through Chelsea and Charlestown. Now, I understand you to say that we have but one outlet. Is that so? A. You have an avenue. You can go round through Charlestown, or you can come round on the Grand Junction R. R., get into Boston; but you would not go over Chelsea Ferry, because we should not take teams. A light team like my friend Mr. Bowker's, can go over the bridge; he would not want to be bothered by the crowd at the ferries. But I supposed this to be a plan for the accommodation of business interests, not for light team travel. They can go over the bridge. Q. (By Mr. WEBSTER.) What is your opinion in regard to the effect of freeing these ferries, on the wharf property at the North End?

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