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3 All laws regulating commerce upon rivers and other lines of transportation, passed by Congress, have been held valid in every court in the United States.

4. Railroads asked Congress to regulate commerce, even to the compensation for carrying passengers. The very law proposed to be amended was passed at the instance of railroads.

5. Judge Redfield, of the Supreme Court of Vermont, says that all charters which operate to regulate commerce among several States are subject to the paramount power of Congress to alter them, whenever Congress shall so decide.

6. Judge Story says, "The State may make laws, under its internal police powers, over turnpikes, roads, ferries, streams and creeks, which may affect or regulate comSaid laws can stand so long and so far as the power of Congress is unexercised.” 7. The United States Supreme Court has decided that all State legislation upon internal commerce is subject in all cases to the paramount authority of Congress.

merce.

These points seem to be settled beyond dispute of the right of Congress to take (not necessarily always in conflict with State legislation) cognizance upon this great topic which so vitally affects the public interest. Let us, therefore, have State legislation and Congressional legislation. Let the rights, privileges and immunities of all parties be maintained. Let fairness and a conscientious regard for the rights of the people and of corporators (who derive all their privileges from their authority constitutionally delegated) control the deliberations of all bodies that may legislate upon the subject. But can we have wise, pure and honest legislation upon this subject? I confess that my anxiety and my apprehensions upon this point have increased when I find Mr. Shellabarger declaring that "the most formidable obstacle in the way of its just and speedy solution will be found in the enormous intimidating, purchasing and corrupting power which these corporations will employ in the elections, the legislatures, courts, and other operations and departments of the government."

Let it be noticed that these alarming and humiliating words of warning and apprehension are not the reckless utterances of a violent, inexperienced politician, who is more anxious to be prominent for his wild utterances than for his fairness and wise discretion. They are the words of a ripe, mature, and careful legislator, one who has had opportunities for observation; who has carefully observed the signs of the times, and who knows whereof he thus deliberately speaks. And what a commentary upon the integrity and purity of many who are prominent in the management of the affairs of the State? Let us beware in time. Let us shape our action in view of the almost overwhelming and antagonistic power that will be brought into requisition against us.

WM. B. MCCLUNG. Believing that the subject before the Convention is of as much, if not more, importance than any question that will come before us, and having had it intimated to me that Senator Hart has given considerable attention to this subject, I would like to say that if the gentleman is in the house and has any remarks to make upon the subject, we would like to hear him, and I suggest that we now hear from Senator Hart.

SENATOR HART being called out, spoke as follows:

MR. PRESIDENT AND GENTLEMEN OF THE CONVENTION :-I don't know as it is becoming in me to attempt to address the Convention on the subject under consideration. If I understand the resolution correctly, it is one of instruction to the General Assembly I am one of that party-one of those who-in the language of the speech that has been made, and very ably made-have been "most culpably negligent in the discharge of their duties."

PROCEEDINGS OF THE CONVENTION.

Perhaps it would be competent for me to speak, not as a member of the General Assembly, but as a member of this Convention, for, by the by, I am one of the hard-fisted men to day. The president or secretary of the Portage county Agricultural Society, not being here, has authorized me to act as the delegate for that county, and with the leave of the Convention, though with no preparation on the subject, I will make one or two suggestions in regard to the difficulties which lie in the way of railroad legislation. There are two extremes upon this subject. One is that held by those who believe corporations have no rights, and who are in favor of authorizing indiscriminate and ruthless war against them; and another, held by those who believe corporations are stronger and far more powerful and omnipotent than the people of the State themselves. I belong somewhere about midway between these two extremes. I would not ignore the benefits we derive from the railroads of Ohio, and you are not so unwise as to ask any fierce or unjust legislation by the General Assembly upon this subject. Why, what have they done for Ohio? What have they done in the way of developing its grand material interests? What have they done in the way of building us up? A few years ago, sir, this Hocking valley was almost a sealed book, and now, by the construction of two or three lines of railway, its resources, which are found to be almost immeasureable, are being so developed as to make it one of the most valuable portions of the whole Union. This is due to the railroads, and any man, a member of the Legislature, who would make war upon the railroads, would be doing injustice to the people and to himself. There is some legislation which is important, and which ought to be enacted, if practicable, without delay, and which is referred to in one section of the resolutions read. I will read the first resolution:

"Resolved, That the Legislature of Ohio be requested to enact such laws limiting the rates of fare for passengers and the charges for the transportation of property on the railroads of the State as will protect travelers and shippers from discriminations and oppressive charges."

Now there are some difficulties in the way of legislation, and I will state them. A majority of the lines of railway in the State of Ohio were constructed either under special charters granted to them by the Legislature many years ago, or were built under By those charters the terms and rates of fare and freight a law passed I think in 1848. are fixed or limited-that is, the maximum rates that may be charged by the railroads. By the act of 1848, the Legislature has no power to change the rates until the period of ten years has elapsed, and even then not until the receipts of the railroad companies shall amount to ten per cent. for ten years upon the capital stock. These laws and acts are regarded by the courts as contracts, and an attempt in many cases by the Legislature to limit the rates of fare would be inoperative. It is impossible for us by any special legislation to reduce the rates of fare and freight, unless it has occurred, that those railroads so originally organized under charters or under this law of 1848, shall have taken such action under the general law as to drag themselves out of their charters and bring themselves within the reach and subject themselves to the action of the Legislature. I There is one thing, however, about which think this has been done in very many cases. we can legislate. Every traveler and every shipper well knows that there are unjust discriminations in the way of charges for freight and fare for passengers. By a law passed last winter, introduced by Senator Casement, of Lake county, it was made illegal for a railroad company to charge a greater rate for a short distance than for a long one for transporting freight, and a penalty of one hundred dollars is attached for the violation of that law; yet that law to-day is of no more value than a piece of white paper, for the reason that railroad companies from one end of the State of Ohio to the other

have disregarded its provisions. In my own town it takes thirty cents more to ship a tun of coal from Massillon to Ravenna, than it does from Massillon to Cleveland by way of Ravenna, a distance of thirty-eight miles further, a clear and palpable violation of that statute.

In the year 1865 I was chairman of a select committee on railroads in this body, and sent out circulars to different parts of the State to ascertain the facts with regard to this important subject. What was the result? We found that there was not a solitary railroad in Ohio that was not violating the provisions of its charter every day. One road in this State, authorized by law to charge not exceeding eight cents per ton per mile, was charging at the rate of one hundred and twenty-five cents per ton per mile on short distances. One road, running through my own town, east, being allowed to charge five cents per ton, was charging forty cents per ton per mile. Such facts as these are notorious. It is known that on the Atlantic and Great Western road they have paid more for receiving freight from the city of New York to Aurora than they would have had to pay on the same road, going over the same line, from New York to Chicago. In some cases, in getting goods shipped from New York to Toledo, as I am informed, they have had them shipped first to Chicago, and then shipped back again to Toledo, finding they could make money in the operation. Now, here is a field in which to work, and in which the General Assembly may act. Here is room for something to be done.

There is pending in the General Assembly a bill introduced by the Senator from Clinton (Mr. Smith,) regulating freights. It may not be perfect in its provisions, but it is in the right direction, and ought to become a law. Another bill, by Mr. Little, of the House, with regard to the charges for passengers' fare and freight, has passed that body and is now in the Senate, which is wise and just in its provisions, and ought to become a law in Ohio.

But let me say one thing, that is, that the culpability in this matter does not rest entirely with the members of the General Assembly. I know the pressure in favor of corporations is pretty strong, and we feel all this pressure. I think, however, there is a little stamina in the General Assembly. Let the people of Ohio have a little back-bone themselves. If you have a member representing your county, or a senator representing your district, let the people whom he represents tell him, by petition, by personal application, by memorials, what their wishes are upon this important subject, and he will obey the command which he receives from his constituency; and if the people in the several counties of the State, who feel the oppression in these railroad matters, will be wise and prudent, there will be no difficulty whatever upon this subject. You will get just such laws passed as you want. It is because the legislators are not informed, oftentimes, that the wants and wishes of their constituency are not carried out. If legislation is needed, tell them so, and stand by them and insist upon it, and whenever such bills are introduced as are calculated to bring about a salutary condition of affairs, they shall become the law of the State of Ohio.

Another thing: On the first Monday of April next there are to be chosen delegates to a Constitutional Convention of the State-a Convention which is to change or examine the entire organic laws of Ohio-a Convention whose delegates will be called upon to consider more important questions, more serious questions, affecting the substantial welfare of this people, infinitely more, than any legislative body that ever assembled. And unless you are careful, men who are mere trimmers, mere rope-layers, mere party managers, will come here as delegates to that Convention. Let the people go to work; let them see that they are represented by the men of brains, the men of power, the men of integrity, the men of solid worth in the State of Ohio; and then you will have a Con

vention which will give you a constitution stronger than any railroad corporation, and higher than any monopoly that ever had an existence in the State of Ohio, and one which shall have power to bind these corporations as with bands of iron, and make them keep their places. There is the place for the people to work. I want you to get out of the idea that all the responsibility rests with the General Assembly. There is something for somebody else to do, something for somebody else to think about, and there is some responsibility resting upon the shoulders of the people who stand behind their representatives.

Another thing: The second resolution contemplates the passage of a law, by the Congress of the United States, regulating this whole subject. That is undoubtedly right. There is no more question that these railroads ought to be made subject to the legislative power of the nation, than there is that railroads are in existence at all. The time is coming, and will come soon, when it will be settled by the people of the State of Ohio, and the States at large, that a corporation created by the authority of law is never greater than its creator; that the corporation is subject to the authority of law. I want the time to come when the Congress of the United States, by an enactment of its own, shall say that every railroad thoughout the boundaries of this nation, whether it be short or long, shall be constructed for the benefit of the public, and subject to the public, and that every railroad train that goes thundering over its iron track, carrying its thousands of passengers, its millions of property, and its valuable lives, shall run for the interest, for the benefit, for the advantage of the people, and not for any corporation that exists on God's earth; and that every engine that is constructed, every car that is built, every railroad track that is laid, and every blow that is struck, shall be struck for the building up of such institutions and interests as shall be the people's institutions and the people's interests; and that every line of every law, and every provision of every constitution of the different States of the Union, shall be in accordance with the spirit of the principles I have stated, and tend to secure the public welfare.

I wish I could impress upon the people of the State of Ohio the fact that the Legislature is almost powerless without their support. In the Constitutional Convention it will be the same way, and if the people want to be protected, they have the means of protection within their own hands, and must use them. I am sorry I have not been able to present more intelligently my views upon this subject; but I will say, Mr. President, that I most heartily indorse the resolutions offered by the gentleman from Butler county, and shall vote for the instructions as a Senator.

WM. B. MCCLUNG. Mr. President: With reference to the duties of the Legislature, and the duties of this body, or the people, allow me to state it in this way: Supposing that the General Assembly of the State of Ohio occupy the same position that my friend Mr. Hart has occupied to-day. They, sir, are in a position to understand this matter— in such a position as that it is brought before them, and it is their duty to consider, to gather up and weigh, all the information they can in reference to it, and when they have thus gathered up and weighed it, to come to the proper conclusions. The people, at their homes, sir, never step out in the foreground, never put themselves forward in any enterprise that is to be carried out, or that ought to be carried out; but this duty devolves upon those who are in the foreground, those who consider these things, and whose duty it is to take into account the condition of things. Now, sir, who doubts for a moment that if the Legislature, representing the people, will take up this matter, and carry out the views of Senator Hart, then let the rub come, and let railroad corporations or other powers undertake to lay hands upon them, and then is the time the people will come to the rescue. Sir, in the past we have had abundant evidence of the fact that whenever there was a question in which the people were interested, and upon which

they had gathered the facts and had the proper information, they came up and sustained whoever was in the foreground. And I am one of those who believe that if the representatives of the people will do their duty, the people will sustain them in that position.

I don't suppose that there is a gentleman here but understands perfectly well that the middle-man-that some one in that position-consumes the very vitals of this country; or, in other words, that the agricultural interest languishes to-day from the fact that it does not return an equivalent to the man that performs the labor. Take the products of the soil here to some other point to be consumed, and you find that to transport them from one point to the other costs more than could have been received for the product before it started. And it is by this means that the vitals are being eaten out of the agricultural interests in the State of Ohio. Take to-day any piece of land, and put an intelligent man upon it, and let him keep an accurate account of the cost of raising the products upon it; let him add the interest of the money that is required to hold the land he owns, and to keep the stock upon it necessary to produce and market his crops, and the labor connected with it, and there is not an intelligent farmer in Ohio, sir, or a man who is conversant with the farming interests of Ohio, who does not know that he will have a deficit in the end upon that farm. I say to the Senators and Representatives of Ohio that are assembled here to enact laws, that this is a case you have in hand. I say to-day, that under the system of freights and tariffs imposed upon it, the agricul. tural interest of the State is having the life crushed out of it, and it is the duty of the representatives of the people of Ohio to come forward as men put in power for the purpose to consider, and not only for the purpose of considering, but for the purpose of guarding the interests of the people. It is their duty to step in the breach, to step to the very farthest verge of their power to protect the people as their representatives.

Now, sir, believing this-and I am glad my friend has spoken in a double capacity, as a delegate to this Convention, and in the capacity of one of the law-making power iu Ohio, and that he is ready to vote for these resolutions-I say to that gentleman, and to the members of the General Assembly here, if each and every one will occupy that position, you may let, if you please, Tom Scott's whole railroad combination combine against you, and you will find the people, that my friend has spoken of, come up and stand in solid phalanx at your backs, ready to sustain you. Believing this, then, we think the representatives of Ohio should take courage and look at this question in its breadth, and depth, and heighth, as a question that is of vital importance to the interests of the State of Ohio; and when you look at it in that light, do not be timorous, but step out boldly and strike the lick, and strike that lick with the fact before you that whenever the people have been roused up on any question they have acted judiciously. I tell you this American people, when once informed upon a subject, is always right, whether for war or peace, for railroads or against railroads. Give them the facts, and they will act wisely; and let our representatives give us the facts, and we will back them up as our people ought to do, and will do.

SENATOR HART: I hope when this vote is taken it will not be a dead one, but that it will be either an affirmative or negative one, so conclusive that there will not be a particle of doubt as to the result.

On motion, a rising vote was taken on the resolution, which was unanimously adopted.

D. McMillan, of Greene, offered the following:

Resolved, That a committee of five be appointed to memorialize our State Constitutional

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