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which he had maintained relative to fome of the new regulations which were intended to be adopted, he owned, embarraffed and flaggered him confiderably. He, in particular, had declared, that he had formed a decided opinion with refpect to the propriety of calling out the militia every year. This regulation, however, he confidered not only in confequence of his own investigations of the fubject, but alfo in confequence of the opinion of others, founded in military experience, to be fo effential to the plan propofed, and so neceffary to the difcipline and refpectable maintenance of the militia, that it could on no account what foever be difpenfed with. If, therefore, there was a total difference of opinion, here the matter might as well be dropped, and, on this account, it was a question with him whether he should proceed farther in the bufinefs The ftatutes & prefent enjoined the annual difcipline of the militia, though there was no formal act of parliament establishing a fund for the defraying the expence which muft neceffarily be incurred, by calling them out yearly. It would, therefore, furely be better to allow matters to remain as they were, than to hazard, by an attempt to amend, the total destruction of an important regulation, which at prefent had at least the fhadow of an exiftence. He wished for thefe reafons to be poffeffed of the Right Hon. Gentleman's clear and decided opinion on this important and effential point, before he thould form any refolution whether he should proceed in the business or not.

individual in that Houfe, had declared that he had not obtained fufficient information relative to the particulars of the plan projected, fo as to give it his immediate concurrence, was the Hon. Gentleman to abandon it altogether, or to deprive him, as well as others, who might entertain fimilar doubts, of having the matter fully debated, and by public difcuffion of forming a decided judg. ment on the point? He was perfuaded that the Hon. Gentleman would, on review, fee the fallacy of his argument, and instead of arraigning him for oppofing a measure of fuppofed general utility, allow him at least the ordinary means of acquiring knowledge with regard to it.

The particular point on which he had not made up his mind, and on which others as well as he himfelf had entertained their doubts, and wifhed for information, refpected the public finance. It was, no doubt, his opinion, that the militia, if called out annually, would be better difciplined than if called out only once in five years.) -But it was a point of doubt with him, whether the expence (and the expence must be confiderable) attending the regulation, if adopted, would not exceed its utility; and whether the money appropriated to this end, might not, in many other ways, be better and more wifely applied for the purpose of strengthening the general defence of the country. In all matters of finance, with regard to every object of plaufible and fpeculative utility, to the execution of which the expenditure of the public money was neceffary, it became him to act, not with precipitancy, but with caution. To arraign him of being unfriendly to a scheme, because he was anxious that its principle fhould be investigated and difcuffed, or to decline bringing it forward, because he had not the folly to approve of it without examination, was a fpecies of reafoning, and a mode of conduct which he felt difficult to reconcile with the well known unde:ftanding of the patriotic gentleman. But abftracted from thefe confiderations, he was apprifed that feveral members had frequently entertained their doubts on other grounds refpecting the expediency of the intended meafure. They withed as well as he did, that the point might be difcuffed; and he hoped the Hon. Gentleman would not deprive them of an opportunity of obtaining every information in their power previous to their forming decided opinions on the subject.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer could not help expreffing some furprize, as well 25 fome regret, on account of the fentiments which the very refpeclable member had adopted with regard to his conduct relative tots propofed reform of the militia laws. He was aware that there was at prefent no question before the Houfe, and that this point therefore was not formally under difcodion; but he hoped the House would indaige him fo far as to allow him to vindicate procedure to the Hon. Gentleman, who le knew was at all times devoted to the interefts of the public, and to whom he reckoned himself peculiarly indebted on the prefent occafion, for the zeal and industry he had employed in putting on a better footing what he fhould always confider to be the beft conftitutional defence of the nation. The Hon, Gentleman feemed inclined to reinquifh all farther profecution of his plan, because on a former occafion he had afferted Mr. Marsham did not confider the Right that he was not fufficiently well acquainted Hon. Gentleman's referve of opinion, with with all its circumftances to declare how far refpect to a point of fo much confequence, hould meet with his fupport. Such was as a thing of light concern. The referve of the Hon. Gentleman's argument. But was which he complained, was pet that of an fair, was it conclufive? Because he, an individual, but of the minifter of the country.

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In this view it was formidable. lation in queftion he confidered as of the greatest confequence. Several Militia Officers, with whom he had converfed, declared it to be fo. He could not therefore think, by the projection of any new scheme, of hazarding its being abolished altogether. He called the attention of the Right Hon. Centleman to what he had already stated. The annual muster of the militia was at prefent prefcribed by ftatute. No money indeed was appropriated for accruing expences. The Houfe of Commons held the purfe of the nation; but he fhould think it an encroachment on the authority of the whole legislative body, were they to refufe granting money for the purpose of carrying into execution an act of parliament. He hoped, therefore, the Right Hon. Gentleman would not confider his argument in that irrational light in which he had defcribed it.

Mr. Minchin rofe; but the Speaker obferving that there was no motion before the Houfe, he fat down.

Immediately after Mr. Minchin had fat down, a motion was made-" That this Houfe do now adjourn."--This called up

Lord Surrey, who expreffed his furprize at finding, that though bufinefs of importance was daily expected, the Houfe adjourned every day between three and four o'clock. If the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of his Majetty's councils, was too much employed to turn his thoughts to every branch of the public bufinefs, he ought to reft fatisfied with his great office of Chancellor of the Exchequer, and not to retain alfo that of Prime Minifter. It was to be lamented, he faid, that though the Houfe of Commons held the purfe of the nation, and confequently a very important rank in the conftitution, there was in that Houfe only one fingle Cabinet Minifter, though the Houfe of Lords had the happiness of poffeffing five or fix Cabinet Minifters. Every thing confidered, he was. of opinion that the Commons ought to have at least one Secretary of State for a Member, and not be left with fo great a difproportion of confidential minifters as it experienced at prefent.

No notice having been taken by the minitter, or any one elfe, of Lord Surrey's obfervations, the queftion of adjournment was put and carried.

FEB. 7.

Mr. Duncombe prefented a petition from the Shopkeepers of York, praying that the Act impofing a Tax on Retail Shops might be repealed.

Lord Mahon prefented a Petition to the fame effect from the Shopkeepers of Wy. combe in Bucks, as did another Member from the Shopkeepers of Durham,

Mr. Pitt faid he should detain the Houfe but a few minutes-it was for the purpofe of giving notice, that he fhould, as foon as the estimates and accounts could be got ready, lay before Parliament the state of the Finances of this Country. The public, he knew, expected it with impatience, and therefore he should endeavour to fatisfy them as foon as poffible. Before this could be done, there were feveral accounts to be produced, which had been moved for, but which were not yet made up. When these were produced, he fhould be

able to ftate, in one point of view, what the actual state of our finances was, and how far we should be able to affift the Sinking Fund, an object from which there were high expectations. This Atatement of our finances was to be formed from a number of distinct accounts, which accounts would be in a short time produced. -After having stated the state of the finances, he meant to refer the confideration of the whole to a felect Committee, the enquiry which would take up but a little time before they made their report, after which he thould move for the account to be printed. He mentioned this matter to fatisfy the impatience of the Houfe on this important fubject. FEB. 8.

ARMY ESTIMATES.

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The order of the day being read for going into a Committee of the whole Houfe, for taking into confideration the army eftimates,

The Secretary at War rofe and moved, that the Speaker do now leave the chair.

Mr. Minchin rofe to oppofe the motion, on the ground that he could not, with his ideas of confiftency, vote for the army efti mates, while the militia, the natural and conftitutional defence of the country, food as it then did. It was abfurd to talk of economy in the pitiful faving of the expence; in his opinion the public money could not be applied more properly, and a few thousands might be the means of faving millions after wards. He would however confent to withdraw his oppofition, if the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be explicit enough to declare his intention with regard to the militia, on thofe points on which he had fad in a former debate that he had not yet made up his mind-or if the Right Hon. Gentleman fhould not then be prepared on that fubject, that he would agree to fuch a reduction of the ftanding army, as wonid employ one third of the militia for the duty of guards and garrifons in Great Britain.

Mr. Steel obferved, that as the difcuffion of the fubject of the militia would probably occupy a confiderable portion of the time of the Houfe, and that it might not come on till the end of the feffion, it was rather a new ground of argument for the Hon. Member to align as a

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reafon why he would not vote for the army ettamates. His Right Hon. friend (Mr. Pitt) had faid nothing that could juttify fuch a declaration. Though he did not pledge himdelf to fupport the bill which was propoled to be introduced, that was no proof that he meant to oppofe it, and therefore he did not fee that upon that ground the Hon. Member ought to oppofe the moon for the Speaker's leaving the chair.

Mr. Minchin faid a few words in explanation of his argument: he did not mean that the confideration of the army eltimates fhould be postponed till the whole bufinefs of the militia was gone through; he only withed the Minifter to declare whether it was his intention to fupport it or not.

Mr. Pitt was filent.

Lord North rose and obferved, that however the question before the Houfe might be confidered with regard to the bufinefs of that day, yet it had fome weight with him as be. ing a dangerous precedent. In his opinion it was a point of order of infinite confequence, and unless there was fome tirong reafon af figned for breaking through the ufual practice of the Houfe in fimilar cafes, he would oppole the motion. His Lordship then explain ed what had been the general ufage when he was in office, which was, that while the army eftimates were upon the table, the ordinary of the navy was voted before they were taken into confideration.

The Secretary at War faid he did not expect his motion to have been oppofed on the grounds which had been urged. He was not an enemy to rules, nor did he wish to trench on the customary forms of the Houfe. He begged, however, to inform thofe gentlemen who had taken up the argument with to much warmth, that the estimates had then been a week on the table. They were laid before the Houfe on Thursday laft, and though Saturday and Sunday were not fitting days, yet they were very good days for reading papers. He therefore hoped the Houfe was latisfied that he had no intentions of taking them by furprize.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer expreffed his furprize at the arguments which had been urged by the gentlemen on the other fide of the Houfe; they feemed to be the efforts of a vigorous oppofition. A noble Lord had complained but a few days ago of the great delay of public buinefs, and of the grievous bardship of the Houie rifing at four o'clock. There was then a full Houte, and gentlemen, he believed, were fully prepared on the fubject to come before them. With regard to the point of form, the noble Lord who had spoken last, had begged the queftien he had not affigned any reason why the

eximates (hould have been on the table mere than a week; and was not that day the feventh from Thursday laft? The spirit of the rule certainly was, that the Houfe thould nog be taken by furprife, and furely no man could fay that fuch was the intention.

He then adverted to the butineis of the militia, and repeated what he had faid on a former day on that fubject. He did not feel himfelf prefumptuous enough to take the lead on that bufinefs, but he would liften with all the attention he was matter of to the arguments of thofe who were better judges than himself. He felt himself under the greatest obligations to thofe gentlemen who had inveftigated and digefted the plan for the future regulation of the militia, but he defired to retain his opinion till the matter came before the Houfe. He profetfed himfelf to be a friend to the militia, and he believed he was warranted in faying that he was its hereditary friend. He confetted he was anxious to make this understood, as fome gentlemen had been affiduous to imprefs the Houle with a belief that he was an enemy to the militia, and they had no other ground for this than that he had prefumed to doubt of the propriety of muftering them annually.

Mr. Fox begged leave to trouble the House with only a very tew words on the tubject of the prefent converfation. A minifter ought to have been athamed, as he should undoubtedly in that capacity, to have declared, that his mind was not made up on a point that affected the conftitutional defence of the kingdom. It was an effential part of that public and oftenfible butinefs which belonged to the high fituation occupied by the Right Hon. Gentleman,

Mr. Pye rofe in the midst of the debate, when the Militia Bill that had been intended to have been brought in by Mr. Martham was the topic of difcuffion, and declared, if it would afford fatisfaction to the Houfe, he would bring in the bill.

Mr. Rofe faid, he should only beg that the clerk might read the precedent, which had been fo often called for by the gentlemen on the other fide of the Houfe. It was taken from a period when the noble Lord was Chancellor of the Exchequer. It thewed that in the year 1773, the fupplies were voted only four days after the ettimates were on the table,

Mr. Grenville hoped what had just happened would teach the gentlemen on the other fide of the Houfe, to be lefs confident in their affertions, as the precedent now, produced clearly proved, that no fuch order as had been contended for had in fact any existence.

Several

Several other members spoke, but the Houfe became clamorous for a vote, and the gallery was cleared. The question passed, however, without a divifion.

The House then went into a Committee of Supply, and Mr. Gilbert having taken the chair,

words for the information of the Houfe. It was in the recollection of gentlemen, that a plan of fortification having been fubmitted to them laft year, a fum of 50,000l. had been voted in the committee of fupply toward. carrying the plan into execution: but it ap pearing afterwards to be a matter of doubt with

The Secretary at War moved the following many very respectable members, whether fuck refolutions:

"That 17,638 men be granted to his Majefty for guards and garrifons for the year 1786."

"That 647,0051. be granted for maintaining the fanie."

"That 6,3581. be granted for the difference of pay between the British and Irith eftablishments, of fix regiments of foot beJonging to, and paid by the latter, ferving out of Ireland in the Plantations, &c. &c."

"6.4091. for the pay of General and Staff Officers in Great Britain."

"24,3781. for defraying the charge of half-pay to reduced or fuperannuated offi

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"8,230l. for the pay neceffary to be adaced to the troops ferving in the EaftIndies."

9,3201. for allowances to the PaymafterGeneral, and the Secretary at War, for exchequer fees and poundage.

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11,4091. for penfions to widows of commiffioned officers."

fyftem of fortifying the dock-yards ought to be adopted or not, the effect of the vote was fulpended, and the money was not laid out, The ordnance estimate for the current year was for 300,00ol but should it appear to the Houfe, that the fortifications ought not to be carried on, then they would vote this year only 250,000l. and direct that the 50,000l. voted last year, but not expendedy should be applied to the use of the ordinance ;and thus, by the votes of this year and of the laft, the fum of 300,000l. wanted for the current fervice of the ordnance would be completed. On the difference of opinion that had taken place relative to the fyftem of fore tifications laid before Parliament, his Majefty was pleased to appoint a board of general and naval officers, to take that fubject into confi deration. They had it in instruction to take a view of the dock-yards, and enquire whe ther it was poffible fo to cover them by fea, by a judicious difpofal of a naval force, as to put them in a state of perfect fecurity. Whe ther, if that could not be done, they might be fo protected by the encamping of landforces, as to be completely fecure against ate tacks. Or, finally, whether they could be

The question was put feverally on the different refolutions, and carried without a word of debate. The chairman then left the chair of the effectually covered both by naval and land Committee.

FEB. 10. Received and read a Petition from Worcetter against the shop-tax.

Mr. Gilbert brought up the report from the Committee of Supply of the army, which was agreed to unanimously.

Captain Luttrell prefented the Ordnance Eftimates for the current year.

forces, without fortifications. They were then to enquire, fhould they deem fortifications abfolutely neceffary, whether the plan propofed by the Mafter-general of the Ord nance, was fuch as would give perfect fecu rity to the dock-yards; and, laftly, whether the estimate of the expence was the most reasonable that could be looked for. In obedience to their inftructions, these gentlemen had examined the yards and places adjacent, and had given it as their decided opinion that they could not be fufficiently fecured without fortifications; that the old works, even if finifhed, would prove infufficient for their defence; and that the plan of the noble Duke at the head of the Ordnance, was fuch as promised complete fecurity to the dock-yards, and could be defended by the fmallest num ber of men. With respect to the ettimate of the expence, they had taken the opinions of committees of engineers on the fpot, and submitted them afterwards to the confideration The Chancellor of the Exchequer replied, of the board of engineers at the Tower; and that fo far from having any fuch objection, he the refult of their determination was, that rofe to fecond the motion. As he was then the estimate was the most reafonable and moupon his legs, he begged leave to fay a few derate that could be expected. He did not

The Chancellor of the Exchequer, ftand. ing at the bar, informed the House, that he had it in command from his Majesty, to lay before them the opinion of the land and fea officers appointed to take into confideration a plan for fortifying the dock-yards at Portfmouth and Plymouth. He accordingly delivered the opinion in writing, and an order was made that it thould lie on the table.

Mr. Courtenay faid, he hoped that the Minifter wonld have no objection to the printing of thefe papers; he therefore moved that they fhould be printed.

mean to fay, that the general and naval officers employed in this affair, had been unanimous in every point; there certainly was a difference of opinion on fome few points; and those who diffented from the majority were as able and as refpectable officers as any of those that composed it; but their refoJution upon the general plan was unanimous, and decidedly not only in favour of the opinion that fortifications were abfolutely neceffary for the defence of the dock-yards, but that the ordnance plan adopted by the Mafter general was the best that could be devised,

Gen, Burgoyne rofe, and faid, he hoped that Mr. Pitt would not have any objection to a motion for an addrefs to his Majefty, that he would be graciously pleased to order that fach parts of the report might be laid before the Houfe as might be made public without danger to the State. He faid he would make it on Thursday next, declaring, at the fame time, that he would leave it entirely to the difcretion of the fervants of the Crown to lay before the Houfe fuch extracts, and no others, as by them should be thought communicable, without injury to the public.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer replied, that he could not bring himself to believe that the Houfe would confent to call for the production of papers that might be attended with alarming confequences to the public.

Mr. Dempster obferved, that without due information on the fubject, he could not fay bow be fhould vote on the question of the fortifications. Understanding nothing of the military or naval art, he believed he should not derive from the production of the report the information he wanted. The information by which alone he could be enabled to form an opinion refpecting the fortifications, be expected from the Committee, of which the Right Hon. Gentleman had given actice fome days ago, that was to enquire to the state of our finances. Should the Sarphus in the Treafury be found to be very great, then he might be induced to vote that fome part of it thould be appropriated to the erection of works to cover the dock-yards: But he had much rather fee it applied, particularly should I be small, in extinguishing fome part of the tional debt; that we might at last esta. bh fuch order in our finances, as would enable us to meet another war, whenever we should have that calamity to encounter.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer differed fo far from the Hon. Gentleman who spoke before him, that he did not think the propriety or impropriety of erecting fortifications round our dock-yards, depended at all ou the quantum of furplus that should be ound in the Exchequer. He agreed, indeed, that our existence depended on reftoring

order to our finances; but not more fo than in protecting thofe dock-yards, the feeds of our navy, and confequently of our national profperity. He should not, therefore, be lefs ready to fortify them, though the furplus in the Exchequer fell fhort of 500,000l. nor more ready if it fhould be found to exceed 8oo,cool.

The question for printing the ordnance eftimates was put.

Mr. Courtenay, finding the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not confent to the production of the Report of the General and Naval Officers, faid he wished to move for a paper, which he believed the Right Hon. Gentleman would readily confent to produce; and that was, a copy of the commiffion and inftructions to thofe officers how to proceed in their enquiries There was one fact which he withed to have officially authenticated: It was this-The Board of Officers had been inftituted for the particular purpose of enquiring into the conduct of the Mafter-Gene ral of the Ordnance, whofe office was in fact put into commillion. Now, it would appear very extraordinary, if the very perfon whofe conduct and plan were the actualfubjects of enquiry,should not only be appointed a member of the board, but even constituted the prefident, and confequently vetted with a cafting voice in points whers his own conduct and character were at stake. He then moved an Addrefs to the King for the commiffion under the authority of which the land and fea officers had fat.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer declining a debate on the queftion this day, as it would anticipate that of Thurfday next, contented himself merely with moving the order of the day, in order to get rid of Mr. Courtenay's motion.

The queftion was now called for, and carried for the order of the day, fo that Mr. Courtenay's motion was loft.

The Houle then refolved itself into a Committee of Supply; when Mr. Brett, one of the Lords of the Admiralty, moved that juft

fent year;

the Came number of feamea that had been voted laft year (18,000) be granted to his Majefty, for the fervice of the preand that 41. per man per month be granted to maintain them.-The motion paffed without a word of debate; and the Houfe having been refumed adjourned.

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